I agree with you whole-heartedly, Rachel. I've seen too many people whose lives have literally been quite adversely affected, if not outright ruined by their children. Try having a 41-year old alcoholic son you enable b/c you love him too much. If I were my Dad I'd have done myself in a long time ago.

I think another key is not having too many children. Why not just stick with just one? I have seen too many marriages go off the deep end once they have the second kid. And too often it's a way for the wife to either (1) avoid going back to work, or (2) excuse herself from having sex with her husband ever again. Too many women are like that, and they tend to choose men are too weak to object. Count me out.

And the bit about having kids so you have someone to take care of you when you are old? )This was my sister-in-law's stated reason, although in her defense I now know her to truly enjoy being a parent ... one of the few I know who do.) How utterly narcissistic!

I'm all for having kids, and plenty of them... but having seen what you subject poor Sunny and Digger to on a regular basis, I have to agree with your decision... ;-)

Hi Rachel,

Your post reminds me of Mark Steyn's writings, where he says the West is in terminal decline and the Islamists are the only ones having babies - I'd rather have more Rachels ;-)

I do have a coupla kids, and don't regret it, for the record - the one redeeming feature of my ill-spent life :-)

If I could do it again I would have kids but would stipulate that I would be able to pick them. I would have #1 and #3. #2 is an all-around bitch with a capital B.

She's my child, and I love her, but I really don't like her too much. She treats everyone like crap. She has threatened to beat me up, taken money I know I'll never see again, and generally makes me miserable whenever I'm around her. The crowing touch was when I succumbed to a fit of insanity and gave her an old Singer pedal sewing machine that had been in the family for 6 generations. It wasn't worth anything but sentimental and family value. I found it behind her garbage can about a month later, utterly ruined.

Thanks for the vent.

Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

They all said it was the loss of freedom and the huge expense that they regretted the most.

Well, as you said, YMMV. My wife, mother, sister, niece and several female friends have all answered an emphatic yes to that particular question. Yes, it is hard work and expensive. My wife had a great, well-paying career that has been curtailed since we've had children. The loss of income slowed down our retirement plans, but the children provide us with endless joy. Endless headaches, too, but I will admit to not being a great bargain all of the time.

That said, people should think long and hard about having children. If your marriage is struggling, the added stress won't make things better. And if you think that your life won't change at all, you're dead wrong. I was at a concert recently at 10:00 p.m. where I saw a woman with a two year old child. While I congratulate her on not being stupid enough to leave her kid at home alone, I felt like smacking her across the face a few times. "But I would have missed the concert!", she'd exclaim. My reply would be that you're a parent now. It's not all about you. And that part is the hardest to grasp and accept.

i was single until the age of 37 and childless until I turned 39. I was pretty darned happy because I could go anywhere, anytime, and do any damned thing that I wanted to. That is no longer the case. My wife and I lost quite a bit of our freedom, but we both feel that what we've gained is so much greater. Again, just our opinion. I appreciate your honesty in this matter. I wish more people would examine whether or not they really want children before having them.

My wife and I are cranking out kids as fast as we can to make up for people like you.

How the hell else are we going to prevent the liberals from taking over?

Make that crowning. Sorry.

Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

If my ex girlfriend could have explained it as well as you did, we may not have broken up over it.

She could only offer : "I don't know why" .. "It's just how I feel" ..etc.

That annoyed me to no end. It's an important decision either way you go and you should have solid reasons for whichever you decide.
Needless to say, it's something that brooks no compromise, (though I did say we could adopt if it was the act of having a child she had an aversion to ... shrugged shoulders was my answer).

Honestly, these days I'm not as certain I do want to have kids. And damn, your post actually shook things up a bit in my head. It appears that I really need sit down and reevaluate what I want and why.

Rach,
You have kids if you want to, and don't have them if you don't want to. And it's nobody's business but your own. But since you wanted us to know what a materialistic, money grubbing, anti-social, 'fraidy cat you are, there's still nothing wrong with that. Having kids is not logical so not having them doesn't need the logic of economics or anything else to justify it.

I have a hard enough time cleaning out the cat box every few days. If I had to change diapers several times a day for a few years, I would probably end up hiring an English nanny and giving her the keys to the paint shaker.

Once you have kids, if you ever do, you'll see the complete folly of your statements.

With that said, there ought to be classes you have to take and pass before people can have kids. it should also be mandatory to wait until you aren't a child also, around 30 I'd say.

Ahh, but you will never have the joy of seeing one of your sons graduate from Parris Island and pin the Marine Anchor and Globe on his cap.

I think children do a tad bit more for their parents than merely care for/or abandon them in their old age. My dad's had some really rough years -and probably wouldn't have lived if it weren't for me (I was the only one who came forward to donate a kidney.)

You can pay someone to "care" for you physically, but that's not really the same.

Honestly, I'm fine with people deciding not to have children. The money argument doesn't sway me, though. Matter of fact, I see too many people holding off having (much wanted) children until they have "enough" money- and then the eggs are old and things just don't work out.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get busy living my hedonistic self-indulgent child-free lifestyle.

Woo hoo!

Thanks, Rachel. Sometimes I feel like less of an adult because of the absent hubby or offspring, so I enjoy hearing from other women who've chosen not to reproduce. (The possibility remains but never has been a priority.)

Elizabeth, except for the sewing machine story, you sound EXACTLY like my mother.

(I'm #3, by the way)

N. O'Brain, that reminds me of my favorite joke:

Question: Why does the U.S. Navy carry Marines on their ships?

Answer: Because sheep would be waaaay too obvious!

LoL...All in good fun. Semper Fi, Dude.

I'll loan you one of mine when you get old;)

Bonnie: It doesn't surprise me. And I realize that middle children feel kind of left out, but #2 was a black hole of need with no event horizon. The more she got, the more she wanted. It got to the point that I felt that I was neglecting her sisters to "build her self esteem," so I stopped. Which really started the tidal wave of whining.

Now, at 31 (yes, 31) years of age, she STILL tries her manipulation on people. God help her poor husband (#2 already, she ran off on #1) and children.

Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

Rachel,
While I can fully understand your point of view, and even to some degree agree with a lot of what you have to say, you can no more attach a justifiable "expense" to the desire to love and have a child, than you can to loving and having a dog.

I say this because based on my experience of having done both, and it has been my experience that raising one child is not all that much different than raising two dogs, nor any less prohibitive in terms of your personal freedom. Assuming you are a good pet owner(which I am sure you are despite the evil "dressing up" phase you are going through now-somethine a lot of baby mommys do too I might add), you still have to feed them, bathe them, in general care for them, educate them, and make sure they recieve medical attention when needed. Your dogs are 100% dependent on you for the entire length of their existance, whereas thankfully a child eventually reaches a point where they can more or less fend for themselves. Not to mention, I would much rather spend 4 years of diaper changing than a lifetime of walkng and poop scooping. I mean at least with a diaper I know where the poo is and there is no chance I am going to accidently step in it and track it around my house unknowingly.

I have two sons, it was my ideal to have them when I was on the younger side so I could still relate to them and enjoy their company as we all grew older. More or less, so far so good, albeit they are in the teen years now so we don't always see so eye to eye about stuff like we once did. Would I do it again, if given the chance? Not really sure on that, I would like to say I would, but would feel much better answering that question in another 10 years after I had a better look at what these spawn of my loins have matured into once they are out and about and on their own.

I have always said that the only good thing that ever comes out of a divorce is the ability to remain being a good, active parent in your kids lives, but still have every other weekend off to pursue your own interests, which I think for some (myself included) makes the time you do spend together more meaningful, important, and appreciated. Try doing that with your pooches.

Have fun ;)!

PS: Not to mention that in the case of your dogs you unfortunately have to go through the pain and heartbreak of watching them eventually die. Something no parent should ever have to do, and thankfully most never have to experience.

"a black hole of need with no event horizon" - Elizabeth

Excellent phrase.

I'm all about leaving people's decisions about their personal lives to themselves.

I have, however, had the opposite experience to you on the question of whether the people I knew would have children again if given the chance to do it over. Even when their children were totally destroying their house, digging up their flowers, or had just been pulled in for driving down the road with 4 of their buddies "street skiing" (tying a rope on a car, then "skiing" down the street behind it on a skateboard or something), they would say that they wouldn't NOT have had children for anything in the world.

Even I, who have two of the most unlike-their-parent children in the world (and even though I offer to sell them frequently, while they are listening), would not give them up. I was a meek, quiet, sensitive, nerdy little boy when I was a child. My boys may not be the most rowdy and hardheaded children in the world, but they are certainly far more than I expected to come from ME (Well, I was hardheaded, but quietly). I literally don't have any idea what to do with them half the time. Then, once in a while, they come along and show me their drawing, or something they just built, or whatever, and just knowing that my opinion matters to them, no matter how much we may fight, makes up for it all.

Brian Thorn, are you KIDDING? Two dogs is just as freedom-limiting as one child?

You are aware of the fact that I can leave my dogs at home alone. Can't do that with kids.

I spend maybe a few hundred bucks a year on food for my two very big dogs. How much does it cost to feed a child?

I can even give my dogs away if I need to, such as if I get disabled and can't walk them anymore. Can you give a kid away if it becomes too big a burden?

And yeah, dogs depend on your their whole lives whereas a kid eventually leaves, but hellooo?? The average life span of a dog is about 12 years, for one thing. Plus, what does it really take to care for a dog? Really. You said, "you still have to feed them, bathe them, in general care for them, educate them, and make sure they recieve medical attention when needed."

Yes, I do. Feeding them involves dumping the same food in a bowl twice a day. Bathing them occurs maybe four times a year, not every day like a kid. Educate them? Yeah, a little training, but it's not like I have to drive them to school every day for 12 years and THEN pay for college. Medical care? You really cannot compare the medical expenses of a dog with that of a child. I'm sorry. You just can't.

Not to mention, I don't have to take them with me on vacation, I don't have to clothe them, I don't have to furnish rooms for them, I don't have to buy health insurance for them, I don't have to buy them a car, I don't have to teach them how to talk, I don't have to pay them an allowance, and most of all, I don't have the enormous EMOTIONAL burden of constant worry over them.

Anyway. I think some of you misunderstand my stance on this and don't give me enough credit for being smart enough to figure out that, yes of course, there are emotional payoffs to having kids. Would I love to have a son who joined the Marines and won a medal? FUCK YES. I would love that very much. But that's about a million times less likely than having a son who becomes an alcoholic or a drug user or a criminal, no matter how you parent them. So I'm just playing the odds. Being objective. That is really how I look at it.

But I'm not cold. I know how much parents love their children and how wonderful it must be to have the unconditional love of a little baby. I KNOW. I helped take care of my nephew until he was 2, and I felt that emotion fully. I would have died for that kid and even today, with him being 19 and doing all kinds of bad things that I don't like, I love him with my entire soul. And it feels good to love him like that. I get it, I truly do.

But I get plenty of joy out of the relationships I already have. I'm fully cognizant of what I'm "missing out on" by not having kids. But there is nothing wrong with saying that the converse is true: if you have kids, YOU are missing out on a lot of stuff, too.

I REALLY REALLY didn't want those of you with kids to take this post in the wrong way. I know you love your kids and they fulfill you in ways I will never understand. I'm okay with that. I get fulfilled in other ways. I'm not materialistic or selfish, either. I just love my life the way it is and I am happy with the love and affection I already get from my friends and family. I don't need to bring another human into the world to truly know satisfaction or joy.

As I have said previously, my wife and I have a statistically significant sample size of children. For years we have been subjected to the wonderfully unique jokes of "You know they now know what causes kids!" and "Don't they have cable TV where you live?" and "Still trying for that girl, eh?" (we had 16-years'-worth of boys before we ever had a girl)

Ha. ha. ha.

But we wanted kids. We planned them, we spaced them out, we even (gasp!) budgeted for them. We find the rewarding moments far outweigh the costs (both monetary and psychological). That was our choice; other people make other choices.

Because we have a large family we have learned never to judge someone's decisions about family size. One kid? Great! None? Super! Ten? If that's your goal, you care for them and love them, then that's great too.

By all means, don't have children, Rachel--surely not feeling the way that you do about the prospects and the cost/benefit relationship.

p.s. some of the better quips we've heard:
"Excuse me, but is this a Scout Troop?" (we had a large number of boys, with no girls, for a long time). [My answer, "Why yes, Ma'am, it is.]
"Porn is cheaper you know."
"All these kids from one wife?" [Yes. She's a saint.]

I don't have to clothe them," - Rachel

And yet.....

you do. ;P

but guess what I will have? PILES OF MONEY. With which I can pay someone to change my diapers

That assumes that not everyone took the advice in your survey to not reproduce, and assumes that there are actually people around younger than you who have the "need" to take such a demeaning job. If 4 out of 10 people reproduce, do you seriously think that their children will even want to wipe your butt. There will be such a shortage of workers that they can call their own tune.

More likely the scenario is that the young people will decide that the old people who were so self centered in their youth, probably don't deserve to live and drain resources from the young productive citizens. Soylent Green...anyone?

I don't need to bring another human into the world to truly know satisfaction or joy.

Excellent point.

Yes Dust Bunny, this planet is in certain danger of running out of people.

As far as other people wiping your butt...do people pick up your garbage or do you launch it directly into the sun from your back yard?

If there's a job, there's an employee.

LMAO! WOW! Deep breath Rachel. I was making casual comparsions not precise financial commentary. No need to flip out, but boy did it make me chuckle nonetheless imagining you having a verbal hissy.

Okay granted, so you wash your dog less than some, and perhaps more than most, and you feed them the cheap stuff (I only say that because my Lab used to cost on average about 1500+ a year to feed him the dry stuff, and until my boys grew up into teenaged locusts they didn't cost all that much more to keep in food). Hell as infants my boys cost maybe $15 combined a week to feed. Jars of Gerber cost less than a can of dog or cat food, and the breast milk was free. As a family unit of 5 our weekly grocery bills for the 5 of us when we all lived together (dog included) rarely was over $185.00 a week, not including if we went out to dinner which we did from time to time.

Yes you can leave your dogs alone. For how long? At this stage in the game I can leave my boys for a weekend, several days if need be and not require a kennel or house sitter in order to do so. Do you see my point? You have had your dogs for how long? Can you leave them completely unattended for days on end? Eventually I can leave my boys for weeks at a time if the need arises. A big difference isn't it? Even when they were babies it was very possible to go on vacation just my wife and I without the kids. Unlike kennels which can cost a decent chunk of change, grandparents seem to delight in having their grandkids around for a week or two, although one should never overly take advantage of this perk, as some parents seem inclined to do.

And yes as sickening and as heart wrenching as it might seem, if I was to become too infirm to care for my children properly, giving them up to someone who can, would in fact be the loving responsible thing for a parent to do. You hear stories of parents who are forced to do that very thing all the time. Yes dogs only live on average about 12-15 years but a true dog lover is rarely without a dog, so you are starting the entire process all over again once you bring another one into the house. With kids once you are past the "house breaking" stage it just gets easier from there on out, with the possible exception of the emotional isses, but even dogs can have those problems.

I think you misunderstood my point. If you don't wish to have children, that is by all means your right and no matter what anyone says to the contrary that is a perfectly acceptable way to be, and I both support and respect your feelings in that regards. I would never try to convince you or anyone else to feel diffferently.

That being said though, rationally speaking, I don't think you can accurately reflect the cost to benefit ratios of having kids versus not having kids via some set of financial numbers played out on a spreadsheet. Certain variables do not, nor can ever have hard numbers applied to them because they are emotion based and it is rather difficult to put a accurate pricetag on that.

Have a baby don't have a baby, they are both very viable, very respectable, and very different yet no less rewarding nor financially restrictive ways to live, depending on how you go about it. Leastwise that is how I see it. So in short, NO I wasn't kidding.

Have fun ;)!

When my husband and I married, I sort of acquired a set of friends through him who were all having babies. It seems as though parenthood kills brain cells off more quickly than alcohol does. This "cult of the child" mentality was in full swing, as I suspect that it still is today.

I've also witnessed marriages that crashed for reasons either directly or indirectly attributable to having had children. The kids brought out those latent-but-not-politically-correct notions about mothers being home with the kids, basic difference in values between the husband and wife, or childbirth brought on debilitating depression in the woman. My sister-in-law stated that her first marriage may have survived if they had not had their second child.

Thank goodness we can make a decision not to have children. I may not have been a really lousy mother, but I would not have been a happy one, either.

And don't get me started on these moronic teenage girls having babies who have NO business doing so.

Rachel -- My Mom has framed pictures of our dog up on her walls and refers publicly to our dog as her grand-dog. She's not worried about who is going to wipe her butt. She's more worried about when her grand-dog can come visit and swim in her pond. She knew I wouldn't have kids since I announced my utter distaste for the idea as a teenager. I agree with every word you've ever uttered on this topic, BTW.

I was being facetious, sort of, about the Soylent Green.

"If there's a job, there's an employee"

Umm no. The law of supply and demand rules. If there are too many jobs (old people in long term care who need their butts wiped) and not enough people to fill the jobs because there are less people(for whatever reason) then the jobs that are going to be filled are those that are most attractive and pay the best. I think butt wiping will be lower on the list of desirable occupations.

Of course, middle and upper class white Americans who have selectively bred themselves into minority status, can always import people from third world countries to do the dirty work for lower wages. Isn't that what we are doing now, anyway.

Rachael and anyone else is perfectly within their rights to decide if, when and how many children to have or not to have. I'm not making value judgement at all. I only have one child myself. That was plenty for me.

I'm merely pointing out the long term social ramifications of deciding not to reproduce.

Brian: "The cheap stuff"? I don't know about where you live, but here, a 40-pound bag of Science Diet costs $30. My dogs eat one bag every few weeks. That comes to about $700 a year. Science Diet is not "cheap stuff". Ok I'm done. I think you're wrong and that's okay. :) I'm not even going to take you off my blogroll for being all up on my ass lately. So there.

Dust Bunny - so it's "self centered" to decide not to have children? Really? Is that the stance you want to take, are you sure? Because most people with kids had them out of some altruistic motive, right? Because THEY were decidedly un-self-centered, eh?

Dogette - preach it sister! Have I ever told you how much I love reading your stories on your blog about Her Dogliness? You do it better than me.

Thanks, Rach, for speaking out for all women whose ultimate goal doesn't happen to be procreating. At 38, my family has *finally* stopped asking me "when are YOU going to have a child?" (spoken by the same relatives who have, over the years, asked me when I'm going to get my single-ass married).

I've never felt that maternal "urge" to procreate. In my twenties, my mother told me, "Oh, you'll change your mind." Sorry Mom, but I still haven't.

I adore my niece and nephews. I find it to be even more fun than being their parent - I'm the cool aunt who takes them fun places, has a great time when we're together, gives them gifts (birthday or not), then *poof*! I go home. They worship me, I have fun with them, and my sisters have to do the dirty work. Muahahaha!

Seriously, though, I'm sick (and tired) of the attitude that there's something WRONG with women who don't, and don't want to, procreate. Is that all we are worth?

Plus, we have waaaayyyy too many people on earth as it is. My lack of offspring is not going to upset the propagation of the species one iota.

Perhaps I'll change my mind one day (and, as my dad so helpfully likes to point out, I don't have many years left to make such a decision). But the only way I'm going to embark on such an endeavor is with a solid man, perhaps a husband, alongside me. And I stopped looking for that some time ago.

Too bad for the rest of us that most of the people in the world procreating are cretins with demonspawn.

Oh, and I dress my dog up too.

Dust Bunny - so it's "self centered" to decide not to have children? Really? Is that the stance you want to take, are you sure? Because most people with kids had them out of some altruistic motive, right? Because THEY were decidedly un-self-centered, eh?

Hmmm... how many parents willingly admit that selfish motives prompt reproduction?

Wow...intense. I'm very torn because all my life I've dreamed about having a family, which includes kids.

Hubby and I have talked about it and we both say we want them...but 5 years of marriage and still nothing. Except three wonderful dogs.

At first we knew we wanted to wait because as my husband said "I'm too selfish to have kids." LOL And he was right...we wanted to be able to do whatever we wanted, whenever we wanted. And he made the argument of not enough money which I never bought into. We would've been fine even five years ago with a kid.

And now... ??? I dunno. My mom calls the dogs her grand-doggies and has photos up at work of them. :) She comes over to visit them even.

I love having the time to create jewelry. I can stay up on Friday night until 1 a.m. if I want ... watching TV and playing with metal and fire. And no one bugs me. I can sleep in Saturday morning and no one wakes me up. So maybe I'm still too selfish for a kid.

But when my coworkers bring their kids in I do feel that longing. I'm definitely torn. And I definitely am NOT looking forward to childbirth. And I am just afraid that my child would turn out to be a liberal!!! ROFL

Although, Rachel, I was shocked that your polling turned out so negatively. Every single person that I've ever spoken with has always said that the pain is worth it. Maybe they're lying. Scary thought!

"so it's "self centered" to decide not to have children? Really? Is that the stance you want to take, are you sure?"

Not at all. It doesn't matter to me. Lots of people have no kids for lots of reasons; including my brother and sister. I never asked why...its none of my business. It doesn't make them more or less selfish than people who have a bunch of kids more or less altruistic. I myself am not a very maternal person and don't particularly like to be around other people's kids. I was more about the economics** of having each generation becoming smaller than the last.

I'm saying what many young people(20's)that I know ALREADY think about the baby boomer generation (that they are a bunch of self absorbed old farts) and the burdens of paying for entitlement that they see coming their way for the rest of their working lives in the form of taxes to support all the old people in retirement. There used to be 18 workers for every retiree, now there are 3 working people paying for SS and SSI for each retiree. In the future there will be even less, more like a one to one ratio. People used to die before they collected much of SS. Now we can live a much longer time. Not so sure that's a good thing. Quantity vs quality of life.

The Soylent Green solution might become more attractive.

** I'm also a financial advisor and I agree with Rupert on the opportunity cost of capital, estimated return and future value..adjusted for inflation of course. I think the $17,000 per child might be a bit on the high side but it would depend on where in the country you live and which of the cost assumptions you believe are actual costs or are artifically created to inflate the base cost. Bored yet. :-)

I am one of those who doesn't want kids either...never have. People throughout my life have told me that I'll change my mind. Nope, that's not going to happen.

And the reasons are what you pointed out. It costs way too much money and I'd rather keep that money and the loss of freedom. Now, I do not word it quite that eloquently, I come right out, blunt and brutal, I'm too damn selfish to have kids. I don't WANT to give up my freedom, my sleeping time, my quiet time, my social life and my urge to pick up and go whenever I want. And I don't WANT to spend my money on a kid. I want to spend what money I make on myself and MY future.

I've never been dishonest about it...I've always stated that I'm far too selfish. That doesn't make me wrong. Frankly, I think there are a lot of very selfish people having kids...THAT is wrong.

(Lest that be read incorrectly: I do not say that all people who have kids are selfish, I say that those who are selfish should not have kids.)

What I wish for is to have people stop asking me why I don't have any and then giving me the third degree when I state, plainly, why I do not want them as if they are going to convince me to change my mind. Why on EARTH would anyone WANT to change my mind?

Shoot! I forgot to have kids!!

Feck it ! So did I ! A few years ago I went on holiday with my flatmates from university. Of the four of us (two men, two women) only one of the blokes had children - he has four. We beleived he was on a personal crusade to make up for his friends lack of procreation. We asked him why he would recommend having children. He thought for a long time and then said, 'Cause they make you laugh.' He paused, then added, 'But I can't wait to get back to the office on a Monday.' We weren't convinced. Don't get me wrong, I like small people, I really do - well the nice ones - I think it should be legal to throttle the bad ones - or the bad one's parents. However, some of us aren't kept awake by the sound of our biological clocks ticking. Its just the way we're made. By the way, the flat reunion we had? It was in Sardinia - near Italy. Three of us could make it cause we didn't have kids and my mate with kids could because he had an incredibly understanding wife and an army of nannies.

Rachel, dear, how big a check? Think you could convince your sibs to do the same thing? I'll just send you all an invoice for 35-40 years of services rendered - that should cover it. Spawn of Rachel is right! Whhooooeeee, what a relief that won't be happening.

No one needs to justify their desire for children, or the lack of that desire, to anyone else... however, if you're going to marry someone, it's really helpful if that person has the same desire (or lack of it) as you do.

The marriage of one couple I knew from high school disintegrated because of such a conflict. He wanted kids, she didn't... and eventually, that difference was one of the things that imploded their marriage. That woman was adamant, from at least the age of 16, that she didn't want any kids. And she was highly pissed that no doctor she asked was willing to tie off her tubes while she was that young.

Because sometimes people's desires DO change. Sometimes they DO meet the precise person who does change their mind about having kids.

I never had kids, never really wanted to. But at the ripe old age of 37, I started experiencing "baby hunger." I started feeling like I wanted one. I started dreaming about pregnancy and childbirth. And no one was more surprised than I was.

I did have a sort-of longing for several years. But I didn't end up with a husband in time for children to happen.

Those feelings of longing faded. And now, five days away from my 54th birthday, I can honestly say that I'm glad I didn't have children.

Both of my sisters started out wanting several children, but each ended up with one kid.

I saw how downright horrible my parents' marriage was, and how trapped my mother felt with several children but no way of taking care of them all by herself, and I swore up and down that I'd never be in her shoes.

I was scared shitless of being dependent on a man who might turn out to be a mean bastard, like my father, someone who enjoyed hurting the people around him, especially women.

I have met men whose kids I might have liked to have, had things worked out. But I'm middle-aged and childless, and I'm glad. I do have a live-in partner. But I honestly prefer my cats to most other members of my species.

"Rachel, dear, how big a check? Think you could convince your sibs to do the same thing? I'll just send you all an invoice for 35-40 years of services rendered - that should cover it. Spawn of Rachel is right! Whhooooeeee, what a relief that won't be happening."

Posted by Rachel's Mom

ROFLMAO!

I don't have children. I just haven't found the right person yet ... to perform the vasectomy. Childfree and content with that part of my life.

First off let me state for the record I am a 42 year old male no wife no kids and do enjoy my personal and financial freedom because of that.

However I am a nobody, You are the world renowned Rachel Lucas!
Who will step in to take your place when you're too old and crotchety to blog anymore?
Where will the world turn when the need for photos of dogs in bikinis arises?

And just think if you had kids they would be the coolest ones in town!

Your kid: "Hi I'm the Spawn of Rachel"
Other kid: "Wow Rachel Lucas the World Renowned Blogger is your mom? She says asshat and everything, my mom just bakes cookies."

The world NEEDS your children please don't let us down.

Personally I want kids,not because I like them (because truthfully I can't stand kids)but I'd like to get to a point in my marriage(when I get married) that my husband(future)and I love each other so much that we decide to create another life..ahem(and hopefully I'll like my kids alot better than all the others I've met heh)

...but then again there's childbirth..so it's a toss-up.

But I DO love hearing you talk about and explain why you don't like kids:) it makes my day.

I find this thread fascinating. Rachel quantifying her reasons to not have children has made me try to quantify why I did have them. Can't do it.

Let me ask you this Rachel - if you were already financially independent (that is, never had to work again), would you consider having children? I realize that you cite other factors beyond financial, but the title of the post would indicate that it's mostly a financial matter.

So now that people aren't reading this thread any more, I'm actually going to state an opinion. :-)

Rachel, I completely and wholeheartedly agree with every point you've made in this entry and this thread. I have a nephew that I love, and I think he's just the best little kid ever. I find joy in teaching him, playing with him, and watching him grow (he's 20 months old). BUT I know that I'm not interested in a child of my own, for several reasons, not the least of which is that cleaning up poop is not my idea of a good time (don't tell me "it's different when it's your child", folks - I've heard that a million times, and regardless of whether it's true or not, I'm not going to have a kid JUST to find that out, thanks). Also, I kind of LIKE not having to worry about finding a babysitter if I want to go somewhere. I like my freedom. And while comparing a child to a ball-and-chain isn't going to win me any friends, I will say that it takes a special kind of person to be that devoted to something for 18+ years, and I'm just not that person. I'll probably never get married, either.

Some of us aren't made for that sort of thing, but there are plenty of people who are, so it's not THAT big of a deal if a few of us just aren't interested.

Thank you, Alexander.

I believe that it's not a matter of selfishness or not, it's a matter of inclination. For myself, I applaud these people; if they were forced to have children, both they and the children themselves would be absolutely miserable.

And having been an unwanted child (and literally told to my face "I didn't want you and wish I had never had you" [at the grand age of 7]), that's something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

So, as medicine increases lifespans and (eventually) we each live to 1,000+ years, not having kids will be a good thing.

Hey, Rachel. One thing that isn't included in those calculations of child-rearing costs is the lost income and career setbacks associated with staying home to raise kids. Sure, the majority of mothers work while their children are growing up, but it's really difficult, especially if your spouse also has a career. What if you need to be at a meeting, or take a business trip, but can't because of your ties at home? What about the classes you can't take, the journals you can't read, and the relationships you can't build? Those things have a powerful impact on career trajectory. Even a five- to ten-year setback can have a huge impact on the remaining years of a woman's working life.

I also opted out of motherhood, and I'm happy with my life. This decision isn't for everyone, but it's worked well for me and my husband.

I've been working as a consultant for the last 13 years, after spending two years in graduate school. If I had been spending the last 15 years providing the kind of time and attention that kids need in order to thrive, there is no way I'd be making as much money, or having as much fun, as I'm enjoying right now. I have the resources and the time to travel, make art, and cultivate relationships that aren't centered on my children. In short, I'm a better, happier person because I've been able to work on my shortcomings and provide things of tangible value to my clients and the people around me.

Dave Barry did the math for having a boy child in his book "Children and Other Hazards of Sex."

$13,000 - small metal cars
$4,000 - other

I think he underestimated the small metal car expense.

I haven't seen anyone else talk about this, so I will jump in.

The Hubby and I can't have children - neither one of us. Didn't know it when we got married - go figure we'd find each other!

--Spent the first 4 years of marriage making sure we didn't have any kids.
--Spent the next 3 years thinking about it.
--Spent the next 3 years trying, only to find out we can't.
--10 years of marriage, no kids - should we adopt we wondered? Had a difficult conversation about our lives at that point, the changes we'd have to make to have kids, all the things we liked to do, the spontaneity of our lives...

And decided not to adopt. Accepted our mutual fates and moved on. Endured the "family baby years" with all the other women in the family having kids at the drop of a hat - endured the endless questions about things that were no one else's business.

Are we sorry we don't have kids now that we're in our 40s and have been married for nearly 25 years? Not in the least. Like Rachel said, we get love, affection and satisfaction from our friends and their kids. We have nieces and nephews we love - I even have a new great nephew now.

Our lives are complete without children - our reasons for not having them were not our choice, but in the end I'm convinced that God knew what he was doing when he made the 2 of us. We are far better off the way we are.

Rachel, your choice makes no difference because I think the male of the species are about to fucking fire women as incubators and
mothers for that matter, technology will provide
very soon, and Sex? There's never been a shortage of that in the history of the world.

Also you are guilty of self sterilization
by puppy dog. I've seen this in women. They live with good dog for 15 years and it makes them think they had a maternal experience. Surprise!! the only legacy of the canine experience will be the pretrified remains of
any dog turds that were missed by a owner on their compulsory...eer I mean healthy outings.

Okay maybe I am bitter cause those women with their cute dogs won't give me the time, but at least a cat person knows a cat is just an animal. (Main Coons Excepted)

If You only knew Who Admiral Ritt was in the printed word.

I don't have kids myself, and now (age 46) it's probably a tad late in the day---my GF's about my own age. It wasn't a decision; more a matter of circumstances never being right (never able to land a career-track job, never living in the same city as the GF, etc.)

My mom used to whine that she was the only member of her HS and college graduating classes that didn't have grandchildren. Considering that my own situation was largely the result of her well-meant but catastrophic meddling, I think I deserve a great deal of credit for not exploding in her face, particularly when she threw this at me in the presence of non-family members.

Personally, after dealing with two selfish, mentally-tweaked alcoholics for thirteen years, particularly WITHOUT the authority that a parent would have, I am done with this sort of thing. Kind of like one or two people I know who were the oldest of huge broods---while they like kids, they feel they've done enough child-raising with their younger siblings to not need the experience any more.

My wife and I are cranking out kids as fast as we can to make up for people like you. How the hell else are we going to prevent the liberals from taking over? - ScottS

We had four for the same reasons (not just to prevent liberals taking over, but to maintain the balance with the idiots). We figured we'd make up for one other couple. (OK, there were other reason, too, but all of them intentional.) I applaud you, ScottS, for doing more than your fair share.

I got lucky, though, and I have four great kids that I wouldn't trade for any others I know. And since I'm saying this anonymously, you can actually believe it. I don't have to save face by saying it.

When we first had kids, for the first couple years, I had that baby-insanity. I was a baby-evangelist. "When are you going to have kids?" "Why aren't you going to have kids?" And the longer I worked in social services -- "You need to have kids because the stupid people are reproducing faster than we are!!!!" (Only somewhat kidding.) Flash forward 5 years...been a parent for over 7 now, and the absolute soonest I can think of getting the house back to ourselves is 13 years from now. When you're thinking about making babies, no matter how much you think you get how big of a commitment it is to have kids, you don't really get it until you're in it. I love my kids to death, they make me smile and laugh out loud on a daily basis, they are fun to be with, and I suppose my laughing at their temper tantrums is the evil equivalent of Rachel dressing up her dogs. I would do it all over again in a hearbeat, but for those folks who have chosen to remain childless, I totally understand and respect why. Selfishness schmelfishness -- we are all horribly selfish in a myriad of ways big and small, but we are still at our best when we can recognize it and make appropriate decisions based on that self knowledge.

Besides, Rachel, if you had kids, you wouldn't have time to blog, and I wouldn't be able to fall out of my chair laughing at "durka durka Mohammed jihad!"

Aren't we glad that life isn't one size fits all? I'm an old fart that has four kids and three grandkids. My children have given me the most tragic and most euphoric times of my life.

Asked the same question, "Knowing what you know now..." my uncle, a Marine vet from WWII (Guadalcanal and Okinawa) said. "I wouldn't want to...but I would." I feel kinda the same way about being a parent.

I've learned things about myself and life that I may not have been able to learn any other way, but, as with everything else...your mileage may vary. Call 'em the way you see 'em.

I know a number of middle aged women without kids who treat their dogs as children. They are mostly self centred, border line neurotic and childish.
I grew up on a farm and country people tend to view animals somewhat differently to 'townies'. I just don't get this lavishing care, love and money on pets and disdaining children, which is what it amounts to. Some psychological imbalance there. And evaluating the worth of children in terms of monetary expense and 'lifestyle' is shallow and lacking in even a small degree of wisdom.
As the adage has it, Adults don't make children, children make adults. Get as mad at that as you like but there is some truth to it, you just have to observe the people around you, why, I've even heard tell that there are people who dress up their dogs in bras and such like, at least, I don't think it was done by giggly pre-teen kids.
I guess you'll say I should lighten up, but I do admire your blog a lot and it's a bit disappointing to see stunts like that.

Darn it Rachel....I've been busier than crap and I'm getting in on this one late in the game. Now, of course, the reason I have been busier than crap is, yes, I know it will be hard to believe, but my kids are running me ragged! I had to help Katie create her first resume cause she wants to get out of her crappy job. If she had listened to me when she was 18 and just gone to college crappy job would more likely have been a higher paying crappy job by now *giggle*. Then, I had to have a 2 hour conversation with Heather re: fav cowboy hottie. Then, Daniel got hurt at work and fractured his cheek. Then, Matthew's girly (luv her) leaves for Pitt State so we wanted to spend time with them. Then, school started for Dakota and Savanah this week *ugh*. K...who did I leave out...oh yeah, Meranda. That is a daily diatribe of how she hates being pregnant (it really is hard on her) and looking at the new alien pics of the new baby to come *giggle*. Heather refers to new baby as a parasite and then entails graphic insults only sisters can hurl at each other. So, now to the rational point, I choose to see all of that as an investment. Because I am an accountant I typically analyze most of my life accordingly. Granted my return on my investment is not necessarily monetary but I do believe I have the opportunity to put 7 rational, healthy (physical & mental) responsible people out into the world. If they so choose, they will then (statistically) continue the process and potentially influence the extinction of dysfunctional families. With ALL of that said, that is my goal, based on my life experiences. If you so choose not to influence the world in that manner, you contribute greatly to the same goal by different means i.e. challenging each of us to be responsible parents, accountable human beings and a tinge of humor to keep things real!

P.S. Sorry Auntie....I will share though!
P.S.S. Please don't misconstrue the above as the primary or only reason I chose to have children.

Count me in as one more in the DINK category. I'm sure my parents never would have guessed that, to see me as little girl. I had doll babies out the wazoo. I played with Barbies, too, but was actually a bit ashamed when I begged for and received my last doll-baby at age twelve. Twelve!
It might have been "Baby Alive" at that point. Maybe I thought it was just cool that you could feed her this "pudding" stuff.
Anyway, a few months after that, it was like a spigot turned off. I had no interest in babies, fake or real, ever again. Don't quite know why, either. I've questioned it time and again, or at least when I was in my early to mid-30s. After I didn't get any "signs" I decided Eh-- guess it's not meant to be, and I won't try to "will myself" into having them. It's a shame though. I'd like to think that Hubs and I would have brought some more good people into the world. At least we would have tried our utmost.

Oh, Rachel. Having children is like taking the red pill in The Matrix. You wake up from a cocoon and live, breathe and know the world for the first time ever. I can no more explain this than I can explain the real world to a baby in the womb. Having children is not about diapers, money, or time, but waking up to everything that the world is meant to be. Children are the ticket to the world's biggest roller-coaster, full of ups and downs and terror and intense joy.

I was horrified, at twenty, at the thought of being pregnant and sick and then going through labor. I was scared at diapers, not sleeping, raising a child for eighteen years.

Then this wet slippery baby was put in my arms and I looked into his beautiful eyes. This week, we'll take him to college -- his brothers and sister and my husband and I. Eighteen years, and I wouldn't take back a second, not a minute.

Dive in, Rachel. Don't be scared. Life is for living, not for avoiding.

Just thought I'd give you one more reason not to have kids:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293816,00.html

Right, more girls get killed by boyfriends than mothers by sons. Yes, for sure the government should pass a law banning boyfriends.

Frazetta_girl, that's what *I* wanted to feel. [I know you are addressing Rachel in your comments, and of course I could never speak for her or anyone else, but maybe someone who reads this can identify]
For myself, I did some serious introspection and asked "Why don't I have the desire for a child? What's wrong with me?" I even prayed to have it placed on my heart. But God works in His own way.

I'm full of deep respect for you and your husband raising what promises to be a fine man. Congratulations to him, too! :-)

Also, I'm grateful to my birth mom (who took me to term at a time when there was tremendous stigma; I still don't know who she is, but I have a teeny bit of non-identifying info, even less on my birth dad) and of course to my adoptive parents who chose me at two months with a head cold :-)
That's what makes it harder sometimes, to reconcile my feelings against having children.
I figure there's a reason, though. I just don't know it yet.

Good for you, Rachel, whatever your reasons, the decision is yours and yours alone to make. Unfortunately, so many people with kids feel it is their business when other people tell them they do not want kids.
I am 61 years old. I've lived a happy childfree life. I won't list my reasons why I never had them the list is too long. But suffice it to say it has been everyone's concern as to why I never wanted children.
People would rudely ask why didn't I have kids and then proceed to lecture me as to why I should just as many here have done in reply to your blog.
People with children often think they are entitled to ask the most personal
questions when it comes to this type of thing.
I believe that's because most people don't even consider having kids as a choice they can make. They just go with the lemmings and proceed to breed at some point in their lives.
I am not talking about people who thoughtfully plan and genuinely want children. These are the people who normally don't hassle those who don't.
Misery loves company. I have come to the conclusion that those who question why others choose not to reproduce are just plain jealous or resentful because deep down, they wish they had the guts not to.
The argument that if you don't have kids there will be no one to take care of you in you old age is garbage. First of all, that's no reason to bring a life into this world: to guarantee nursing service when you are old and grey. Many adult children abandon their parents in their old age. I used to volunteer at various assisted care and nursing homes and let me tell you the adult children who visited their elderly parents on a regular basis were few and far between.
I am happy for the parents who say that their kids are a joy. Parents used to tell me when I was of child-bearing age that I didn't know what I was missing and I would regret not having kids later on in life.
At age 61 I an still not regretting it. I've lived a good full life and plan to live a lot more with my cat, friends and all of my interests. I think if more people were really honest with themselves, they would abandon the "life script" that dictates they reproduce and live the life they really want: childfree.

Ok..I've been reading the comments on this post and love them all. I am married, my husband has kids. They are good kids, but having them around only makes me know that my decision not to have kids of my own is the right one.

Why do divorced parents feel the need to tell their new spouse that they would 'never abandon the kids'? Why do they continually try to force the kids and the new spouse into their version of a relationship? These are the questions that I would love to ask my husband but can't, because of his emotional attachment to the kids and all conversations, subjects and items related to them.

Unfortunately, finding a man of my age (35) that doesn't want to have kids an exercise in futility. Plus, I truly love my husband and that's why I married him. His having kids with a woman that he doesn't particularly like now impacts our marriage in ways you wouldn't believe (never mind that he picked the woman in question to have the kids with).

For those of you that are divorced, and are going to marry someone that doesn't have kids, and has no plans to have any through personal choice, I offer some advice:

1. Let the kids and stepparent develop their OWN relationship without interference and judgements from you

2. Don't feel the need to constantly say 'I'll never abandon my kids' - don't you think your spouse knows that already??

3. Allow time with your spouse alone, without the kids.

4. Don't expect your spouse to be the 'yes' man or women when it comes to your parenting skills. Chances are, you'll have some disagreements. It shouldn't be the end of the world as you know it.

5. Allow that, childless though your spouse may be, he/she may actually KNOW SOMETHING about children and how they should be raised.

6. Don't make it an 'all-or-nothing' when it comes to your relationship with your spouse and the kids. Don't pit one against the other (you may not even know you are doing this).

7. Don't talk about the kids ALL THE TIME. this makes for a really boring relationship.

8. Don't be threatened by the fact that your spouse doesn't have kids and could walk out whenever they get ready. Chances are they married you, so trust that they want to be with you, kids and all.

9. Don't expect your spouse to make up for the shortcomings (real or perceived) of your ex-spouse when it comes to the kids. It will make them resentful.

10. DO appreciate your spouse for what they bring to the kids' lives - and appreciate the fact that they are doing so even though they made the decision not to have kids of their own.

There. My advice for divorced parents who have married someone with no kids. Respect their feelings and you'll get their respect. YOu also have to allow for some change; after all, if you expected that nothing would change after you got married again, you probably should have stayed single - with your kids.

We made the decision not have children years ago before we got married. At least once a week we congratulate ourselves on it. What others think of our choice is irrelevant. The point of evolution should no longer be to reproduce but to live forever well. Besides, children smell.

Scott: My wife and I are cranking out kids as fast as we can to make up for people like you.

How the hell else are we going to prevent the liberals from taking over?

LOL. Of course. Ideology is genetic, and all children think and believe just as their parents do. That must be why cities like San Francisco and New York are full of refugees from BibleThumpinJeebusLand.

Ligneus: I know a number of middle aged women without kids who treat their dogs as children. They are mostly self centred, border line neurotic and childish.

It's funny how many right-wingers will use the term "neurotic" for "anything a Womban does that pleases or benefits her but doesn't benefit, directly or indirectly, a mayyyunnn or cheeeeldrunnn.

When, of course, they're not using the term "selfish."

I grew up on a farm and country people tend to view animals somewhat differently to 'townies'.

Obviously. That must be why it's nearly impossible to get the state of Utah to take animal torture seriously.

And it probably has something to do with how chreeeestiunnn rural people are. "Dominion over the animals" apparently means "mere property, to be abused or tortured at will." Because it's more important to preserve hierarchy — men over women, women over children, humans over animals, xtians over non-xtians, hets over gays, etc. — than it is to discourage sadism and abuse in society. Even though the strong connection between animal abuse and abuse of other people — linked by innate sadism and a need to dominate and inspire fear in that which is smaller and weaker than the abuser — is well-known to law enforcement.

I don't believe in animal rights, btw. I eat meat and wear leather. I believe in animal welfare. And, as someone who has lived in cities and suburbs all her life, I'm really tired of the bullshit claim that rural people are somehow more "moral" than I am.

I just don't get this lavishing care, love and money on pets and disdaining children, which is what it amounts to. Some psychological imbalance there.

As opposed to, say, breeding litters of children? Personally, I think "Quiverfull" families like the Duggars of Arkansas are much more insane than just about any childfree person I've encountered.

And evaluating the worth of children in terms of monetary expense and 'lifestyle' is shallow and lacking in even a small degree of wisdom.

Well, if you're raising little farmhands and future broodmares who won't need a college education, you probably don't need to consider money too much. People who want their children — even their daughters, imagine that — to be educated, and have choices in life, are probably going to want to limit how many children they produce so they can give said children the most opportunities in life they can.

Oh, and I love how you put "lifestyle" in sneer quotes. Hey, Ligneus, how much childcare do you do? Or is that all "women's work"? Because I notice that an awful lot of men of your opinions are also very wedded to rigid gender roles. Have you ever changed a diaper or gotten up for a midnight feeding? Or do you figure that since you're "bringing home the bacon," that takes care of your duties, and your interaction with the kids is limited to "Kodak moments" and maybe some discipline?

As the adage has it, Adults don't make children, children make adults. Get as mad at that as you like but there is some truth to it...

Because there's such a shortage of human beings on this planet...

Frazetta: Dive in, Rachel. Don't be scared. Life is for living, not for avoiding.

Drink the Kool-Aid, Rachel. Drink the Koooooool-Aaaaaiiid...

I can think of few things more insulting to tell a childfree person that by not breeding, s/he's "avoiding life." As if Following The Script™ — you know, college, marriage, x number of kids, church, corporate job, McMansion, picket fence, and distrust of anyone who doesn't do the same — isn't so often a way of avoiding making decisions about one's life.

Finally, not all of us cotton to living life on "an emotional roller-coaster." And no, declining the ride isn't "avoidance." Oftentimes, it's a sign of maturity.

Rachel: You go, girl.

It's refreshing to hear someone be honest about having selfish reasons for not wanting kids. Any woman who doesn't think she'd be a good mother should not have kids, and not worry about what others think; it's a personal choice. As a mother of three young kids, I can attest to the fact that it's more work than I ever realized in those first exhilirating/panicky/morning sick days after the first pregnancy test came back positive. As well, it's exhausting and expensive, as mentioned in the post, and can sometimes be isolating. But, while it may seem there's not much to recommend it, motherhood is, on the flip side, fun, fulfilling, challenging, and the joy of it is pretty well impossible to explain to someone who has never had kids. I work part time (weekends) and I'm trying to get started as a writer at the moment, and the only time I have to work on my ambition is after the kids finally go to sleep for the night, and sometimes I'm so fried at that point I can't remember what day it is anymore. So what? For now, I'll do what I can when I can when it comes to writing and be fully present for my children the rest of the time-they deserve that. As my young ones get older, I'll have more time for non-kid related stuff, but my family will always be my
first priority, and my children, like all of them, will always need my love, help, and support until they are fully independent. Even then, they'll likely still need me-even after having my third child, I was so wrecked from the delivery that I thank God my own
mother stayed with us for a while to help out.

Having said that, that's my life, not everybody's life. There are lots of people who
don't want diaper duty, and I don't get the hostility towards them. It's not a personal affront directed at all of parenthood when someone decides not to have kids, but some people take it as one. Why not just live and let live?

Brian Thorn, I have to agree with Rachel on the whole dog thing. Dumping food into a bowl and then walking away isn't the same as cooking three times a day, every day (not to mention snacks and making sure everyone is drinking enough water), while trying sure you're hitting
all the food groups AND providing variety AND
trying to do it all on a tight budget. Throwing the dog into the river once in a while
does not equate with nightly baths for multiple children complete with the horrors of combing through three curly heads of hair. And educating a dog? A few weeks
of obedience school and buying some doggy toys
isn't the same thing as being there for thirteen years of first-day-of-kindergarten panic attacks (parent and child!), homework, fundraising, battles with various teachers, back to school shopping, and dealing with the assorted bullies and unsavory characters a child comes into contact with while in school.
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea.

All in all, I think being a mother is pretty awesome.