I know some of you are itching for a fight.
So here. Have fun with this.
The update I posted about Rupert’s dad was titled “There are no atheists in a foxhole.” Which anyone who reads here regularly would understand is my way of poking fun at myself, seeing as how publicly, on this blog, I’ve repeatedly identified myself as feeling like either an atheist or an agnostic, depending on my mood. I’ve regularly criticized Christians and their beliefs and have asked them to defend themselves, which they did, some nicely and some not. I’ve been very open about the fact that I simply don’t know the truth even though I’d like to, and that I find debates about religion interesting because they give you such a window into how other people think and view the world. There’s a whole category here called “Religion” but the point is, I have no religion. I reject organized Christianity and every other religion that’s ever been.
So I used that quote to describe the way I was feeling at that moment, while writing about a loved one who is in a coma. I was feeling down and sad and worried, and I used that quote because whenever I’m in a scary situation, I think about whether there’s a God, and I almost always find myself believing that there is because it helps me and comforts me to do so. The belief diminishes my suffering, simple as that. It may be wishful thinking but so what? It helps me and hurts no one.
Well. That post title really, really, really pissed off some atheists. An atheist forum linked to it and its members began peppering my comment thread - which remember, was for a post that was about a loved one being in a coma and that I wrote and titled while in an understandably emotional state - with things like this:
I am sorry to hear that you find the contribution of so many members of our military, such as Master Sergeant Gid L. White (retired), to be of no value.
- Foxhole AtheistIf you are going to pray “just in case”, I suggest you pray to as many different gods as possible. If not, you may be praying to the wrong one. And don’t forget to gather a few additional lucky charms while you’re at it. I suggest a rabbit’s foot, 4 leaf clover, and a horseshoe for starters. Then you might want to do a Google search for lucky charms. There may be a number of them recognized by other cultures which are effective that we don’t know about.
Then you might want to tackle eliminating all the bad luck charms. You never know, that might make a difference as well.
If you are comforted by these measures which give the appearance of ‘doing something’, then why limit them to simply praying to one potential god when there are so many other acts of magical thinking which are comforting in situations where there is little else one can control.
- SkeptigirlYour opening post is a lie. There ARE atheists in foxholes… even if you don’t “believe” there are. Pat Tilman was just such an atheist. Educate yourself and quit deleting posts who try to lessen the bigotry you spread. http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/
Lying for Jesus is still lying. I hope your friend gets better. I hope he never is the bigot you are.
Just because your faith makes you feel all humble and honest… doesn’t make it true, you know.
- A Third Atheist (articulett)
Now. If someone other than me can please explain to these people why I might find those comments inappropriate for the subject at hand, why I might delete them to prevent any added stress on my boyfriend’s family who might read them, and why I completely freaked out and cussed a lot when I first saw them and started tossing them to moderation in a fit of anger and resentment that someone would have the BALLS to nitpick an albeit-untrue cliche that I used while emotional about my boyfriend’s family…that would be really great. Because I’ve left a few comments myself for them trying to explain it and they’re just not getting it.
They seem to think that the problem here is that I don’t want to hear anything that challenges my “beliefs.” Clearly, they haven’t bothered to read any of the archives and comments therein, which, if they did, would quickly disabuse them of the notion that no one gets to comment here unless they agree with me. It would also quickly disabuse them of the idea that I have any hard “beliefs” about this particular subject.
Last night, the last time I saw an incoming link to the forum on which I’m sure they’re still pummeling me, I clicked on it and read what they were saying. Apparently, I believe in Jesus and am a bigot, and also I don’t have a fundamental understanding of how the internet works because I’m stupid enough to believe it’s my right to delete comments on a web site that I own and pay for. The last comment I read said that all I needed to do to redeem myself was to apologize to atheists for repeating the foxhole quote, and that the fact that I reacted instead with anger just went to show that I need to learn some “tact.”
Yes. Really. I am the one who needs to learn tact. Because I got very angry when someone contributed something to my web site that I feared might deeply upset someone I love. I may be crazy, but it seems to me that those commenters up there that I quoted might need slightly more urgent and detailed lessons in tact.
Because can someone explain to me what kind of raging ASSHOLE goes onto a personal web site, reads a post about a loved one in a coma wherein the author asks for people to pray if that’s their thing, and picks a fight about the post title because it’s just SO FUCKING IMPORTANT to clarify that there are, in fact, atheists in foxholes? (I’m assuming we all know that ‘foxholes’ basically means ’seriously bad situations particularly in military combat.’)
Anyone? Can anyone explain it to me? Am I just missing their righteous justification because I’m emotional about Joe? Am I too fond of too many Christians and it has muddled my thinking even though they still haven’t converted me and never will?
What’s most ironic about this sort of thing is that people seem to want to achieve some goal, but they go about it in completely the wrong way. If the proper and just thing for me to do is to apologize for repeating a quote that is so deeply offensive to atheists, I will do that. But I’m a human being and I was extremely emotional all weekend while this was going on, and those fuckers just kept piling on, completely destroying any urge I initially had to apologize for the quote.
And right now, I can’t quite figure out in my head exactly what the high road would be. Would it be to apologize for offending atheists? Or would it be to completely ignore them because the specific ones in question were so goddamned rude for hijacking a thread about a coma victim? I really don’t know.
All I know is that this afternoon, they’re still on my ass. Yesterday I set comment moderation to moderate every comment from new commenters so I could have more control over what was showing up here on my own personal web site, and I’ve been just delighted to see the atheists are still so intent on having their say. At first, I got all pissed off again and left my own comment telling them to get over it.
Then they left a few more, so I figured, let them all out. Let them all see the light of day so that everyone else here can judge their merits for themselves. So I just cleared every single one of them. Because mind you, I never actually deleted any of their comments; I just moved them to the moderation folder to be dealt with later, after I calmed down.
I still have new-commenter moderation set so some comments that normally wouldn’t get stuck there still will. Just give me a little time to clear them out. I will clear every single comment made, EVEN IF IT SAYS I’M WRONG, as long as it’s civil and in no fashion whatsoever brings Joe or his family into it, because they have nothing to do with it now, on this thread.
Speaking of, I did learn a lesson from all this, though probably not the one the atheists were going for. The thing is, I realized I can never post about anyone in my family or Rupert’s family again, unless they specifically ask me to. They don’t want this kind of attention, and the potential fall-out from it could be devastating to some of my relationships. The minute I say one of their names or anything about them, someone out there could decide to say something about it in a forum, things that would be extremely hurtful if ever seen by the loved ones in question. It’s just not worth it. Clearly I messed up, thinking I could post on the internet about someone near and dear to me and that anything I said about their lives would stay here, on my blog, where I could control it. I won’t make that mistake again.
So I hope the atheists have gotten what they wanted from me. That’s what I’m here for, to use “offensive” quotes during emotional times and to be instructed with great gusto and attention about what a bigoted jackass I am so that I’ll never use such quotes again and all the world will learn what happens to you when you make that mistake. It’s really quite marvelous and I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m ready to join their organization RIGHT NOW, if they’ll have me.
They just seem like such kind and considerate people, out there teaching the world about tolerance and overcoming bigotry, spreading their word wherever they think it’s necessary for the furtherance of enlightenment and elimination of negative stereotypes about atheists, even if it means hijacking a thread on a personal blog about someone in a coma. Because TRUTH is all that matters, people. Learn it and live it.
Rachel,
I’m sorry you’ve gotten so much cr*p from people on both ends who care more about being right than being kind. I hope Rupert’s dad is doing better and will heal soon and completely.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:27 pmESTI don’t want to offend you, Rachel, but I often find Atheists a helluva lot more obnoxious than Christians. Where you may get a small percentage of wacky Christians, you will usually only get that same small percentage of normal atheists.
I know you’re not faithful, so you must be one of that small percentage.
But many (not all) atheists are lefties, and those on the left will hijack ANYTHING - even a thread about a sick loved one - for their purpose.
RG
June 9th, 2008 at 5:30 pmESTRachel,
June 9th, 2008 at 5:35 pmESTYou owe no one an apology!
Please do keep us updated on his progress and know that we’re as “here” for you as we can be, even if things have been tainted a bit by some smug, unholier-than-thou jerks.
What’s next? Rallies with people holding up signs suggesting all sorts of unpleasantness for those who insult atheism? Perhaps if you made some cartoons…
June 9th, 2008 at 5:35 pmESTHell, I’m an atheist, and I find that obnoxious.
Just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean you have to stop being a decent human being.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:37 pmESTDear Incoming “Atheist” Assbags:
Fuck You.
Warmest regards,
-Naughtius
June 9th, 2008 at 5:39 pmESThttp://morrisao.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/atheism.jpg
That aught to set them off.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:40 pmESTMost atheists are just pissed because they’re not the center of the Universe.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:40 pmESTSome people confuse “freedom of speech” with “freedom to harm with speech”.
I get the same negative dump on from idiots because I’m a Scientologist. Many people seem to think their truth is the only truth that counts and they have the right and OBLIGATION to insult and put down others just because they’ve decided on a course of living that conflicts with the other person’s course of living. I ignore it usually (and regret it every time I don’t).
I was at a KFC one time and some jerk came in, started to smoke and was told by an employee there is no smoking in there. She responded really rudely saying they needed a sign and blah blah. He pointed to the sign. But what I observed is that after that, his mood and the manager’s mood both dropped from friendly and cheerful to being moody. When the clerk came near me (he was cleaning the floor), all I said was “How DARE you allow the attitude of someone else ruin yours!” He expressed shock at first, then laughed and thanked me and continued on working in a much better mood.
There are many who like others to feel bad about themselves. That’s why the spew the garbage that they do.
I am truly sorry you won’t be able to post about your family (that is inclusive of “Rupert”) any more. I know it helps to communicate when one is down and then to be penalized for communicating when one is down, that can really hurt. Been there, felt that.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:41 pmESTTHe asshat that told you to educate yourself should educate himself on the origins of the saying:
The precise origin of the phrase, coined some time during World War II, is uncertain. Various sources credit Lieutenant-Colonel William J. Clear, or Lieutenant-Colonel William Casey,[1] but the phrase is most often attributed to journalist Ernie Pyle. The line is used in the film “Wake Island”, which was released sometime in early 1942. In the book Ghost Soldiers, author Hampton Sides credits the origin of the phrase to “Father Cummings”, a chaplain present during the raid at Cabanatuan in 1945. ”
THe idiot has never heard anyone say that before? He really needs to pull his head out.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:41 pmESTI’m with rightgirl,
June 9th, 2008 at 5:42 pmESTPlease, please do not apologize. Those people are the rudist people in our society. Remember the clowns that went into a mass in drag in SF, just to show their disdain for religion (I know they think they were defending their lifestyle, but screw ‘em, It’s Mass). You may want to consider something else: I wouldn’t be surprised if at least some of them are targeting you because Vox Day, their hated enemy, has linked you a couple times lately. I read and comment at a variety of blogs, and except for one communist blog, I never leave insulting comments. They should learn the same respect. You have done nothing to apologize for.
Brad
Many people will stop at nothing to defend their beliefs, especially if they preceive themselves to be targets for those beliefs…*cough! *Scientologists *cough!*
Good manners be damned.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:45 pmESTThere is a class of atheist, call him the Evangelical Proselytizing Atheist, who is even more obnoxious and asinine than any Christian (with the possible exception of Fred Phelps, who is actually rejected by most Christians).
And I find them much worse. An overeager Christian will simply tell you you’re going to Hell. Fine, so far as I know he isn’t the gatekeeper, and his assessment of my destination is irrelevant. The atheist, on the other hand, will get right in my face and abuse me. All the while, he’ll be claiming that he acts solely on empirical evidence and rational thought.
Yeah, I’m convinced. Stop spraying your rational spittle on me, God Hater. Thing is, I am not a “believer” in any organized religion. I suppose I waver between being agnostic and a deist. I have far too many questions and uncertainties to even appreciate anyone who chooses to personally assault me over a matter of belief. So morons like these can be disregarded as not serious.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:45 pmESTHeck–I’m an atheist, too. Maybe agnostic but I’m definitely leaning to one side. But I hold no one else’s beliefs in contempt because they don’t jive with my own. Unless they’re totally asshats about it, and then they can kiss my ass.
Seems to me, from the comments you posted above, you’ve attracted the asshat variety.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:45 pmESTArticulett is a well-known idiot, who (surprise, surprise) used to be a big religious supporter. The views may have changed but the attitude is for life.
Skeptigirl… is usually a great person. I have no idea.
As I said in the other forum, I really want to apologize on behalf of, well… um, our forum. We really aren’t a bunch of raving nitwits, a few of them just apparently spilled over here. I’m an atheist because I don’t believe in God, not for the company.
I’m sorry you got to see the few nasties in our forum (one of whom was an evangelical Christian at one point, and I’m sure just as amazing for your side as she is for ours). It’s not representative of most of us, who just want to live out our lives. As for RightGirl’s post, the fact that she called us ‘lefties’ pretty much says all I need to on that subject, eh?
Are we somewhat offended by the atheist in the foxhole meme? Sure. I am. It suggests that atheism is an immature belief that won’t weather times of hardship, and anyone who struggles will inevitably become an atheist. Having weathered the loss of friends and loved ones, I can assure anyone who is curious that that’s not the case. I am very interested in philosophy, and I am frequently awed by the world around me, but I really don’t think that there’s a God. If anything, the size and scope of the universe is humbling precisely because it cares so little about us. It’s a very cold beauty - every pretty rose is nurtured in the soil of a thousand corpses. The fact that there is no greater scheme is what makes every triumph and every tragedy important. It’s what give meaning to our lives, with religion they’re just flavor on an eternal afterlife, and don’t matter one bit.
It was clearly inappropriate to bring annoyance with that particular saying into a personal post. So while I will understand the sentiment (in that I find the phrase offensive too), it was wildly out of place. Please accept this as coming from someone who does understand.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:46 pmESTRachel -
I just want to wish Rupert’s dad a speedy and successful recovery. I’m sorry that so many people chose to quibble over a quote instead of focusing whatever positive energy they could muster into Joe’s healing.
I may be an agnostic, but I still believe in wishing the best for those who need it when they need it most. Health and happiness to Joe, Rupert, and you.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:47 pmESTMy prayers are with your family during this difficult time.
You are discovering the painful truth about just how tolerant and loving the most vocal opponents of religious faith and practice really are.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:49 pmESTSri Yukteswar’s response to the scientist that failed to find proof that God exists went something like this: “so you failed to isolate God in your test tubes, I propose a new experiment. Examine yourself unrelentingly for 24 hours and wonder no more at the absence of God.”
June 9th, 2008 at 5:54 pmESTIf there’s one Commandment I can get behind, it’s George Carlin’s suggested Third Commandment (after the first two, consolidated from the original ten): “Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself!” For purposes of this Commandment, “atheism” and “agnosticism” count as “religions,” too.
Now, we’re all guilty of violating this one, now and again, in little ways. But the ultimate violation of this Commandment is someone who tries to push their religion on another…and I don’t think I’ve ever done that. I sure hope not.
I can’t change you, Rachel, or any of those atheists who are hassling you, or anyone else reading this. I haven’t the right, and I’d be a boor and a fool for trying. I can only change myself…and that’s a process that’s in work. But my journey is for my footsteps alone; to try and force it on anyone else just isn’t right. Would that others could say the same.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:54 pmESTOh, and by the way, when I posted, to most of the commentators (but particularly Brad): you people are exactly why we get so damn defensive. Someone says they’re a Buddhist, and Christian, a Deist, it’s all fine. But there’s a number of you who have some idea that if someone’s an atheist, they are (and this is a direct quote): “the rudist people in our society.”
You can be absolutely any religion you want, or even not very religious, and nobody cares. But say there’s no God, and immediately you’re scum of the earth. It doesn’t even come close to making sense. At least if you’re referring to Christians, they all share some set of base principles (the Bible, if nothing else). All we share is a lack of belief. Heck, you might as well compare a Hindu to a Muslim, because they both don’t believe in Christianity. Yet, we’re all in a group. We’re all left wing, we’re all rude, we all don’t care what other people think, we all trample on people’s opinions, etc. etc.
If I had to name that attitude, it would be bigotry. You are generalizing based on a religious belief, and it’s only acceptable because the religion is “none of the above.”
June 9th, 2008 at 5:55 pmESTWow. Just wow. Please don’t apologize, there’s no reason to do so. Anyone who could be so insensitive isn’t worth it.
I’m sending my prayers and best wishes to you and Rupert and Joe and his family.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:55 pmESTRachel,
I hope Rupert’s dad gets better and FAST. And for the love of Pete do NOT apologize to these assholes! Only some jackass with less than half a brain could misunderstand what you meant. Ignore them and remember that WE love you and I’ll be praying for Rupert’s whole family.
(And I’m really sorry I didn’t send you that package yet. It was put in the moving van by mistake. It should be there in about a week!)
June 9th, 2008 at 5:58 pmESTYou’d think that someone who ostensibly claims to support our soldiers would make the effort to get their names right. It’s Tillman, ya idiot. With TWO Ls.
And I don’t believe Pat Tillman was ever confirmed to be an atheist, only that he “wasn’t religious” (which could mean anything).
June 9th, 2008 at 6:02 pmESTNo apologies necessary, whether you deleted the comments (as your right on your own property), or let ‘em through. My personal e-mail signature block has this quote…
June 9th, 2008 at 6:05 pmESTRachel:
I appreciate the fact that you mention your family on your blog, because I know you like to blog about people who matter to you. That’s both normal and admirable.
But I do understand if you choose not to discuss your family again to avoid exposing them to the rudeness of others.
I intend to continue enjoying your blog whether or not you ever mention family again. You have to do what you believe is best for your loved ones.
I also intend to continue asking God to heal Rupert’s father, even if you choose not to post his condition in the future.
And you haven’t asked for any advice from me. But if you did, I would say “Don’t Apologize For the Post Title”. Your choice of a post title is your business alone.
Craig
June 9th, 2008 at 6:06 pmESTOh for Pete’s sake, to use another religious based phrase. First, who the devil does anyone think they are to tell you that you shouldn’t pray? Self-righteous prigs. Remind me that the next time someone they love is injured I need to seek them out and exhort them to pray. Doesn’t matter one iota about THEIR feelings on the matter. That during a loved one’s serious injury might not be the very best time to give a half-brained lecture on logic and faith. That they are being as annoying and hate-filled as those they rant against. This is NOT the time to be shooting your damn fool mouth off about something that isn’t your business to begin with!
Second, its a quote you ninnyhammers. It originated with soldiers during the most horrific conflict in our history. It can mean so very many different things. In today’s service, it tends to mean that everyone is there because they believe in something. Might not be God, might be a concept, might be family, but they sure as hell BELIEVE when they are under fire.
Finally, I am keeping him in my prayers, and hope that he is in as little pain as possible and that he recovers soon. I pray because that is what I believe, and anyone who would tell me that I can’t … can go to hell, to use a particularly apt phrase.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:10 pmESTGreyICE, I’m no bigot.
You seem nice and polite, but sorry, you are wrong. I work a job in which I encounter a lot of athiests (science prof at a huge university), and no one comes across with such arrogance, and childish snarkyness, as your comrades in anti-religion. This is not personal, no one knows my worldview, because as a lapsed leftist, exposing that would jepardize my position. It is strictly from observation, which I’m pretty good at.
“But say there’s no God, and immediately you’re scum of the earth.”
June 9th, 2008 at 6:10 pmESTNo, no, no. Say “you’re an idiot for believing in God, you’re stupid, you’re vacuous…blah, blah, and that’s when people feel you’re pretty scummy.
Perhaps if you had been less hypocritcal with your deletion of posts, there’d be less room to crticize you. As it stands you whined about people using your issue to make points and then deleted the points you disagreed with.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:12 pmESTFirst, my deepest wishes that Rupert’s dad gets well quickly.
Two, this is YOUR blog, think of it like your property, you can delete to your heart’s content. Those jerks don’t maintain, you do. Also, your blog = you don’t have to apologize.
People are so rude online, ignore the stupidity.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:17 pmESTDo not apologize to them. They do not dserve an apology. People have a right to free speech, they DO NOT have a right to not be offended by somebody else’s free speech.
The “I am atheist, hear me roar” crowd needs to get over themselves, but they’re too short-sighted to do so. They’re so busy bubbling over with Self-Righteous Indignation(tm) to realize that they’re the only ones who look stupid in this mess.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:17 pmESTI’ve noticed that too and I have a theory on why that might be.
The way I figure it, most of the people who claim to be “atheists” aren’t.
They go around saying “I’m an atheist, I don’t believe in God” but they aren’t doing it out of any sincere belief in the non-existence of God. They’re doing it because they think it makes them sound “cool” and “edgy” and “counterculture” and whatnot. They think they’re giving a big middle finger to “The Man” and leading a righteous rebellion against the Christian Culture of Corrosive Conformity or whatever infantile name they’ve come up with to describe people who think differently than they do. And since atheism is seen as the “intellectual” viewpoint, they assume that calling themselves an atheist makes them magically more intelligent than those who don’t. They think they’re much more intelligent than the rest of us plebes because they were smart enough to figure out God doesn’t exist.
But if they ever sat down and seriously examined their belief system, they’d realize that their claims of being an atheist are just that, claims. They aren’t beliefs. Most of them have never considered the full ramifications of a Godless universe. And if they did, most of them wouldn’t be atheists for very long.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:20 pmESTApparently, along with believers, there are quite a few pedants in foxholes.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:22 pmESTI’ve been reading your blog for the last couple of months, and I enjoy it. One thing I’ve noticed, though, is that you take your commenters a little too seriously. I know it’s hard to not take things personally, but these (drive by) people don’t even know you. Their opinions, including mine, are of no value to you. If they’re upsetting, just ignore them (us). You don’t have to justify yourself to them. You don’t owe them your existence.
I’ve never commented here before but I started to feel bad about your being ganged upon by people who don’t even read your blog regularly. So who cares about what they think or say? Let them wallow in the misery of their ignorance and bigotry. The worst thing that can happen to a passionate advocate is for noone to take them seriously at all.
I hope Rupert’s dad recovers and does better. I’m not a practicing Catholic anymore, but I did say a prayer for him. As for the “atheist in a foxhole” controversy, I remember reading a long time ago what’s called “A Soldier’s Prayer”:
Oh my God, if there’s a God,
Save my soul, if there’s a soul.
Take care.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:26 pmESTI TOTALLY feel your pain. I made a comment about the FWISD’s PEAK program on the FW Star-Telegram page yesterday, and got totally flamed by someone who decided I needed to be put in my place. (Apparently freedom of speech = freedom from thinking before you speak.)
I seriously wonder if these people would have the cajones to say these things if they didn’t have a computer to hide behind.
I vote for NOT apologizing. You can say what you want in your house…if they don’t like it, they don’t have to come visit.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:27 pmESTDon’t apologize.
Fuck them, and not in the good, fun way. One, this is your site, and if you wanted to rant about Jesus all day long that’s your right, and you have NO obligation to let a bunch of douchebags comment. Same if you were taking the other side. So they have absolutely no merit to complaining there.
They have NO right to come here and be assholes. Period, end of story. They can be assholes elsewhere if they want, but only if the owner of where-ever they decide to be assholes allows it.
I agree with RightGirl — on the internet, I’ve come across a LOT of just plain *offensive* atheists like this. Not all atheists, not by a long shot, just these type who feel the need to tell EVERYONE they’re atheists and that they’re RIGHT and no one else is, and Christians are poopyheads. Or whatever fires them up. I’m sure there are jackass Christians, too, they just don’t seem to flock to the same places I do (being a sci-fi nerd has some advantages…)
Anyone who would go after you on that post over something as silly as a phrase everyone has heard deserves to go to hell. Whichever religion has the worst “hell”? That’s the hell they should go to.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:28 pmESTBut….if you have to keep your religion to yourself…..and the Third Commandment of your religion says “Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself!”……how do you tell people to obey the Third Commandment?
Kif, we have a conundrum.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:33 pmESTRachel, You have no reason to apologize (well, maybe at first, if someone had merely gently pointed out the fallacy of the quote — but who would be so uncouth as to point that out in a post about your concern for Rupert’s Father?!?)
At this point? HELL NO!!! Those fuckers can take a hike.
FYI this is coming from a NON-RELIGIOUS person who hasn’t decided one way or the other about religion & god. NOT a Christian.
I also notice the the foreign commenters STILL seem to have the impression that you are a Christian, even though you say you’re not, a LOT. Jeez!
The sad thing is that stuff like this is why so many great bloggers quit. Please don’t quit.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:33 pmESTGreyICE, this is you, less than 10 minutes earlier:
“Articulett is a well-known idiot, who (surprise, surprise) used to be a big religious supporter.”
Why the sarcastic “surprise, surprise” crack? What does it matter that this “Articulett” used to be a “religious supporter” (whatever that means)?
June 9th, 2008 at 6:33 pmESTI feel like smacking those assholes.
I sincerely hope that this goes past you, you don’t deserve to be more fragilized than this ordeal already makes you feel.
Still thinking about Mr. Joe, and you. Stay strong, nevermind the noise.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:36 pmESTLol this is the reversal of what im used to seeing here.
Athiests are now getting mad at Rachel?… looks like you’ve got both sides to deal with now.
Hot damn, Why is everyone so worried about offending eachother? or rather, why do people get so offended so easily?
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. — Lol looks like kindergardeners have it down pretty well. as for full grown adults… it’s pretty sad.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:36 pmEST“There are no atheists in a foxhole.”
That’s what got you spam assaulted by these pimple covered idiots? A hundred years old colloquialism?
In a thread about a family member with a serious medical condition? You have got to be kidding.
You know, the family stuff, and the unique way you express it, the dogs and Rupert and all, that’s a major attraction of your blog Rachel (for me anyway). Don’t let a bunch of douchebags ruin your blogging. Just delete their crap.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:36 pmESTI think we are seeing the power of God expressed as….RACHEL!!!! She’s better than lightning or a plague of boils on really stoooooopid people!
Go God! Go Rachel!
And best wishes to Joe, his family, (including Rachel, Rupert, the Dogz, et, et.
And even God Bless teh stoopid.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:38 pmESTAdam, since everyone’s hell is personalized, I believe the worst hell would be the one Elvis would end up in if he went to hell. There, the only music is sung by Shatner, the only food is Brussels sprouts, and the only drink is south Florida coastal tapwater.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:38 pmEST“Anyone? Can anyone explain it to me?”
Ummm, ’cause they’re assholes?
June 9th, 2008 at 6:41 pmESTRachel: I hope Joe is better. All of you, hang in there!
On the side issue of atheism vs religion. . . I think it’s a lot like people who are gay but have never admitted it to themselves. They STAY pissed off at gays. IMHO, people who claim to be atheist but can’t stand to discuss religion probalby harbor a secret faith.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:47 pmESTI suppose you’ve run into the type of atheist who has a problem with heretical thought. No one expects the Atheist Inquisition, their main weapon is surprise, surprise and overblown outrage… their TWO main weapons are.. *ahem* I’ll stop.
As for “freedom of speech” I don’t see them getting their own blogs. A comments section is like a pub where folks can meet and discuss things. These particular individuals are acting like abusive drunks and are whingeing about their so-called right to piss over the floor without any consequence.
I’d summon the bouncers.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:53 pmESTRachel -
June 9th, 2008 at 7:05 pmESTSeems to me, from seeing the number of replies you get to you posts, that there are a lot of people out there who appreciate your writing enough to want to comment on it. It would be a sad thing if you ended up not telling us about family and friends, but ultimately, that choice is up to you. As far as comment approval, I use it on my site, just to filter out the certifiable nutballs who end up pirating a thread for their own personal use. To them I say, you have a complaint, by all means, get your own blog, don’t use mine as your soapbox (I’m already up there, and it’s a small soapbox).
In any event, please know I’m praying for you, Rupert and his dad, as well as the rest of your family (yes, the dogs, too). Hang in there.
From Rachel’s post:
Good grief. I’m an atheist too, but I like to think I’m not an asshole.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:09 pmESTI understand why Rachel might get upset, that one of her relatives who thinks prayer actually makes a difference could be hurt by a comment that says it doesn’t. But when you think about it, why would they be upset by such a comment? Do they think that expressing honest doubts cancels out the power of prayer, making it more likely that Joe won’t pull through? Is it like the audience trying to save Tinker Bell with applause, and everybody has to clap or it just won’t work?
I was in the hospital myself a little over a year ago, having emergency surgery that saved my life. I was never tempted to pray for my recovery. Not once did I ask anyone to pray for me, though this being America, most people seemed to think it was important to tell me that they were doing so. I didn’t take offense, because they don’t know I’m an atheist, and I don’t think they need to know. I mentally translated their “I’ll be praying for you” into what I felt they were really trying to say, “I hope you recover,” and let it go. I have recovered, and I thank the doctors for saving my life. While I appreciate the support of friends and family, a simple “I love you” was more powerful to me than someone who assumed the existence of a supernatural force, and presumed their whispering to it could actually alter the course of events.
None of your friends, family, or prayer group are doctors, and none of their hopes or prayers is likely to have any effect one way or the other on Joe’s recovery. The two relevant factors are Joe’s constitution and the quality of the medical care he’s receiving. I’m sorry, Rachel, if you or Joe’s relatives is going to be upset if someone states the obvious, and I do understand the desire to “do something” even in situations like this one in which there’s nothing really that you can do except comfort one another on the sidelines.
I hope, for your sake, that Joe does recover completely. I also know that there are likely to be people dying every week in the same hospital, with the same number of people praying for their recoveries as are praying for Joe now. Those who recover will help convince the people praying for them that prayer is effective, and those who don’t will do nothing to persuade the people praying for them that it wasn’t. Prayers and heavens are like fairy tales for adults, fictions meant to be comforting in the face of painful facts. If my saying that upsets anyone, it’s probably a sign that they recognize on some level that they’re lying to themselves. Their anger toward me, the insensitive atheist, is misplaced, but if it helps them in some way (they don’t want to be angry at God for ignoring their sincere prayers, do they?), I’m happy to be their lightning rod.
I haven’t taken the time to read your archives, and probably won’t be back to see whether or not you delete my comments for “rude atheism.” I’m not insulted that anyone would claim there are no atheists in foxholes, because I know there are. I also understand that you weren’t making such a claim, but merely expressing your feelings. I know it’s frustrating in your situation, wanting to help and being practically powerless to do so. I realize that many, perhaps most, people in your situation turn to prayer as a cultural fallback, “don’t know what else to do” reaction. While I don’t fault you for that per se, I would caution you about the downside.
There may be more that those of you gathered around the bedside can do, and throwing up your hands while falling on your knees may actually blind you to some constructive actions you could be taking. By conceding powerlessness in such a fashion, you may be predisposing yourself to “give it to God” instead of searching for more constructive answers. Maybe someone on the internet has faced a similar situation, and the doctors treating Joe are not aware of a treatment which could be more effective, but you can find it with Google. Maybe the doctors know exactly what Joe needs, but won’t communicate it effectively to the family unless you ask the right questions.
Instead of simply being offended that someone would be so insensitive as to compare your prayers to a collection of good luck charms, maybe you could consider for a moment that they might be right. You say it probably doesn’t hurt to pray, but if prayer fills that “doing something” place in your mind so that an action which might actually make a positive difference isn’t recognized, maybe prayer DOES hurt. I would never say that your legions of friends on the internet should stop praying, but most of them seem to stop at prayer. I’m sorry if it’s insensitive to say this, but the surgeries, medicines, tools and techniques which saved my life wouldn’t have been invented if everyone in the past had simply prayed for a cure and let it go at that.
If prayer is all you’re doing, all you’re doing is pretending that magic really works. If there is an almighty eternal creator of the universe, who bends the laws of reality in response to pleas from His groupies, He can surely shift events at the time of the accident so that not only would Joe be wearing a helmet, but the accident would be avoided altogether. Pray for that.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:14 pmESTObviously no one has explained to you the difference between an atheist and an anti-theist.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:14 pmESTMadam Lucus,
It a very well known fact that there are assholes everywhere, regardless of Religious or lack off Religious convictions.
That is all…
June 9th, 2008 at 7:17 pmESTI’m an atheist. I hate assholes. I understood the spirit of your title and saw no offense. Some people just need to find their sense of humor and use that muscle when they see someone is suffering from the potential loss of a family member instead of immediately assuming, rather selfishly, that the universe revolves around them and whether they’re offended or not.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:18 pmESTChuck,
June 9th, 2008 at 7:19 pmESTirregardless is not a word; just being helpful, not mean
[Heh - I'm in one of those moods where I fix spelling and grammar mistakes on comments just because it's fun to do and I always wanted to be an editor. So now your comment makes no sense because I you posted it seconds after I fixed it for him. So that's why I'm adding this note. LOL - Rachel]
Writer’s Blockhead -
A hell with South Florida coastal tapwater?
Now that is undeservedly cruel!
June 9th, 2008 at 7:20 pmESTJoining the chorus-
No apology necessary, Rachel! Post as you see fit.
The offended atheists should remind themselves that civility is at least as important as content in a privately hosted forum of this nature. Be prickly and offended if you like, but be advised that you may well be mocked for your pains.
Snark away once you’ve become a regular contributor and are somewhat known, but even then BE CIVIL.
The fun of this comment section is its eclectic mix of opinion and belly laughs, and this is made possible by the respect commenters here show for Rachel’s expectations of civility. Got an argument? Then bring it, but have the courtesy to be mindful of the emotional tone the post sets.
(gets off soap box)
June 9th, 2008 at 7:23 pmESTThe only apology you need to offer those ever-so-classy Dawkinites is to say how sorry you are that they’re a bunch of smug, self-worshipping douches just asking for a beating with a Clue-by-4.
And I say this as a braindead, unevolved Godbag. =B
June 9th, 2008 at 7:33 pmESTAnother Atheist,
You still don’t get it, and most likely never will. As your last comment so tellingly shows.
Google it for an expert medical opinion. That’s an all time keeper.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:34 pmESTI think this hits the nail on the head. I would rather spend a week with a family of evangelical christians than an hour with an evangelical atheist which is what those people definitely are. They’ll be much nicer to me even though I’m a heathen in their eyes for not seeing things exactly the same, and I’ll hear about God a whole lot less.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:42 pmESTRachel,
Next time you change the masthead, you should have a contest for the most “unique” way of working in the “…no atheists in foxholes” quote. That’ll light ‘em up.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:42 pmESTApologize to atheists? What? I have been all over the map in terms of belief, am probably an atheist now, but having dug fox holes, I cannot imagine someone being offended by what you wrote. Sheesh, it’s almost as if they were thin skinned and looking to be offended. Quit kneeling in front of Obama, you delicate souls, and go do something of use…
June 9th, 2008 at 7:47 pmESTThis is a shining example of how in the blogosphere, people have a tendency to create their own reality.
I prefer the genuine article.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:54 pmESTAllen, you just beat me to it. Another Atheist just doesn’t get it, and I doubt he ever will.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:54 pmESTRachel, what I’m about to say has been said before but I’ll chime in anyway.
First, it’s your blog. Your blog, your rules.
Second, do not apologize. You owe no one an apology. If people don’t like what they find here when they surf in from elsewhere, they can go away and not come back. Attendance here is not mandatory.
Third, assholes come in all stripes. They all seem to share one characteristic, however. Well, two. One, they’re notoriously thin-skinned. Two, they have no respect for anyone else. Everything else is variable.
Fourth, I hope Joe is doing well and send my best to you and all of your peeps. And the dogs, too.
As for the assholes, fuck ‘em. Not literally of course, because…. ewww.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:55 pmESTBrad makes the observation that:
in the same comments page where Naughtius says:
and Adam Lawson says:
and Mata Hari says:
and N. O\\\’Brain says:
So, Brad, you wanna restate your observation in light of these quotes or would you like to remain an ignorant bigot?
June 9th, 2008 at 7:56 pmESTGood health for Joe, and comfort for the family. my prayer for you.
As to atheists in/or not foxholes. I have been in a few, never saw one there.
No apologies, and at least keep us posted on Joe.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:57 pmESTAllen, I went to the emergency room again a couple of months ago, thinking I might be having a heart attack, because I had pain in my shoulder, and my arm was numb. They did an EKG, charged me $500, tried to convince me I needed an MRI too (which I declined, since the EKG had dispelled my concerns about a heart attack) and sent me home.
The next day, I went to see my regular physician, who said it might be arthritis, prescribed pain pills and scheduled me for an X-ray (which would be a pre-requisite to an MRI under my insurance coverage). I didn’t go for the X-ray right away, but I did spend a couple of days looking through symptoms on the internet. I found some hits, which led to other hits, which led to a couple of descriptions of “pinched nerve.” At that point, the numbness in my arm had spread to my fingers, and I realized that was what I had. The internet sites said the usual treatment was just to let time take its course, and that it would take weeks or months to heal. The internet was right, and it’s almost completely healed now.
I suppose in this case, praying would have been just as effective, but for a guy like me, actual knowledge is just so much more comforting. You can scoff at Googling for medical advice, but Google came through for me where two doctors had not, with the limited time we had to exchange questions and answers. I scoff at your prayers, though I’m sure at least some of you have stories about how it absolutely made the difference for you. To each his own.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pmESTI am both 1) a person who does not believe in a deity, and 2) a Person who is for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
I militantly shun both implied labels for identical reasons.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pmESTI can think of a lot of things to describe those comments, but “honest doubt” isn’t one of them.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pmESTOh, hell! I’ve been at an advising training all day so couldn’t check in at lunch …
So YEAH, ATHEIST INTERLOPERS!
What everyone else said! Double STFUBYSSS (at least on the other thread…)!
“There are no atheists in a foxhole” is used in this context as a platitide, kind of like:
“You are proof that evolution can go in reverse.”
“Sometimes, you can’t see the forest for the trees.”
Or the ever popular:
“Don’t bite off more than you can chew.”
You don’t see me googling the platitude listed below and then pissing in the Lucky Charms of your atheist brethern when THIS platitude is used:
“Religion is the opiate of the people.”
So here, assholes, is one (or two) last platitudes.
“No sense beating a dead horse.” AND:
“Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.”
Oh no, Rachel, the “World Jockey Association” is gonna rain down a shit-storm because you are now advocating “animal abuse and necrophilia.” Then of course, “Equine Fuckers of America” will have to chime in with their two cents, leading inevitably, of course, to armageddon.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:01 pmESTSorry ’bout that.
Rachel,
First, my best wishes for Joe, I know this is a hard time for him and his family. I fell off a 40 foot cliff last July, shattering my hip and fracturing my skull… I don’t think there’s ever a good time to wake up in a hospital, and being afraid of what will happen when the bandages come off makes it even worse.
Second, as to your atheists… All I have to offer on that one is another old quote: You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all the people all the time. Don’t let their vitriol get to you, offending people is part of being alive, just by existing at some point you’ll offend someone.
Third, it’s your blog. You can do as you wish with it. Even more so, since I notice that it’s actually rachellucas.com, not rachellucas.randombloghosthere.com. You pay the bills, we’re all just guests, even the ones that give some money to keep the lights on. Your house, your rules.
Hope you have a great night, and don’t let folks wind you up too much. Remember, at the end of the day, they don’t really exist anyway, because it’s all electrons.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:01 pmESTHehe. It sure did, Zeero. I had to delete quite a few really demented comments from that crowd. I was debating with one of them who seemed to at least keep a civil tongue in his head, but when it became obvious he was just going to go on and on, I ended up putting a stop to it.
Rachel, you owe nothing to any of us. It’s YOUR blog - end of story. Your house, your rules.
That you choose to share your take on life, the universe and everything in such an often insightful and funny manner is a blessing. If it ever becomes a chore, I think you’d give it up right then and there. The fact that you enjoy it so much is a main part of what we find attractive, I think.
I hope Joe has a speedy and full recovery - I’m certainly praying for that.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:04 pmESTRachel, you are a disgusting little shit. There are other people in the world, with different beliefs than yours, especially considering you change yours about as often as you change your clothes.
So take a bit of advice from someone who knows the ways of the world:
June 9th, 2008 at 8:10 pmESTDon’t take pot shots at people, and they won’t take them back at you.
[This was left on the post about Joe but I moved it here because like I said, that post is about Joe; THIS post is for the Angry Atheists to show their ass. I ought to post his email address, too. Trying to take the high road here, though. For now anyway. - Rachel]
Foxhole Atheist’s original comment seemed pretty mild to me, simply pointing out that the quote wasn’t true. Perhaps it was off-topic, or just plain unwelcome in that thread, as some commentators explained politely. But just two comments after FA’s initial comment, he was called an “asshole,” and at some point, Rachel edited his comment to refer to him as a “complete and total asshole” and an “insensitive shithead.”
So I don’t think it was the atheists who were “itching for a fight.” And certainly in this thread, the nastiest things so far are being said by “your” side. Which is fine, it’s Rachel’s party, etc., but your moral high ground looks a little shaky to me.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:16 pmESTNRen2k5, you are a hopeless twit. Don’t take potshots at our Rachel, and we won’t take them back at you.
How do you know how often Rachel changes her clothes? Are you stalking her? Should we notify the police? That’s sarcasm, by the way, since I’m quite certain you don’t possess the ability to perceive the nuance without assistance.
I just remembered another “asshole” characteristic — they are incapable of conceiving of a situation that isn’t all about them.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:18 pmESTSezMe:
Ignorant bigot? What tripe, you fool. These people are not going to some shit blog you admire and posting angry responses; they are here and shooting back at stupidity directed at the host, fool. Look chump, you’re just looking for a place to shit insults. Good job.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:20 pmESTAnother Atheist,
What makes you think I pray? This is why you’ll never get it, you make unfounded assumptions. I do not believe in a deity, but I do believe that many people can show their best traits through holding a belief in one.
When my wife laid dying two years ago, many people offered to me and her their prayers, it warmed me. I saw it for what it was, their heartfelt outpouring of empathy in the most sincere way they had.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:20 pmESTAnother atheist,
June 9th, 2008 at 8:21 pmESTWhere the devil did you get the idea that we are talking about prayer instead of medical treatment? You are playing with one of the most idiotic ideas about religious people, that they are somehow anti-science. He is in a hospital being treated by real, live doctors with their real, live machines and their real, live medicines.
NRen2k5 Says:
^^ what?????!!!
you should sue his ass, it’s all I’m saying.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:22 pmESTI see a vision of a future hell….I go to one of my favorite websites…and see the following:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4 August
Woke up. Day proceeded along expected parameters. Ate as Required. Dark now, expecting to sleep soon.
-rachel
5 August
Woke up. Day proceeded along expected parameters. Ate as Required. Dark now, expecting to sleep soon.
-rachel
6 August
Woke up. Raining. Otherwise normal day. Ate as Required. Dark now, expecting to sleep soon.
-rachel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now I don’t normally quote Glen Beck, but somebody get me some duct tape, because MY HEAD IS ABOUT TO EXPLODE!
Please do not let this aberration change the content and function of this site. You need to vent, and we need the vicarious venting.
Prayers for your family.
DanB
June 9th, 2008 at 8:23 pmESTThese “atheists” are self-righteously pathetic and poorly mannered sociopaths. These are probably the people who really are living in their parents’ basements.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:23 pmESTRachel,
I am truly sorry for what happened, and my family and I will pray for you and your family.
I really enjoy your blog, and I hope you still keep us in the loop about your family. I understand if you don’t.
I am a Christian, and I believe that people (Christians, Muslims, Hindu, Atheists, etc.) evangelize their faiths (partly) by the way they act towards others. This is why I cringe when I hear about a Christian telling someone they’re going to hell (although I must say Idon’t know a Christian who said that to anyone, to my knowledge). I invite the atheists who’ve posted here to take an honest look at their comments and ask themselves if they’ve furthered their cause, or hindered it?
As for SezMe’s snarky post about who is ruder, it looks to me that the atheists started it, and I doubt they would be nicer to people who went on their friend’s blog to insult and belittle them in a time of crisis. Blaming the injured for his injury was particularly cruel.
Rachel, I love your dogs, and I hope that you’re taking comfort in them.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:24 pmESTHere’s a temporary blog title to REALLY annoy the hell out of a certain segment of commenters (you know, just until they return to their hovels):
“Rachel Lucas: The world is going to hell and I’m driving the bus”
June 9th, 2008 at 8:29 pmESTMy Grandpa was a WWII Medic. He didn’t subscribe to any religion. He often quoted “there are no atheists in foxholes.” During WWII he didn’t have to worry about offending anyone because nobody got their panties in a bunch for PC reasons way back then. And why in the world would you need to worry about what atheists think when you have been chronicalizing your journey with atheism/agnosticism? Seriously if they have a problem with it, it’s their problem.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:30 pmESTPlease don’t let them get you upset. You were speaking of yourself and your religious beliefs. If they took it personal don’t let it bother you. Then they win. I know it’s easier to say than to do.
Think of it this way. The increased traffic will be good for blogads, right?
This is your party. You control the show. You can say whatever the hell you want to say.
Dane Cook says it well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wts-dntnyh4
Rachel,
First, I’m a new reader. I’ve found several posts to be humorous, and some poignant. I set out on a quest a couple of weeks ago to find female bloggers that have a conservative bent. I’m not sure why your name popped up, but I’ve been following along. I empathize with your wanting to DO SOMETHING with regard to the current state of affair in the US.
I can add some light as to why the “Atheist in the Fox Hole” title drew so much controversy. I grew up Catholic in a very loose sense of the religion. My parents baptized me as a baby. My parents divorced when I was 5. I received my First Holy Communion when I was seven because my Mom made sure my sister and I did the bare minimum. I somehow managed to get my Confirmation sacrament (again because my Mom made the base effort even though we didn’t go church every Sunday). Long story short: Religion wasn’t a profound part of my life growing up. IT IS NOW. Why?? WHAT CHANGED? I became an adult, got married and had children. I recognized the value of it in my heart and wanted it in my life and for my children.
I’m going to say something you won’t want to hear. You are still grappling with issues most adults deal with in their twenties. I am only 5 years older than you, but when I read your posts, I think I’m reading posts from a twenty-something kid.
I give you credit for your recent soul searching and volunteerism. You are on the right path. Don’t eliminate “organized” religion just because it’s “organized.”
just me
June 9th, 2008 at 8:48 pmESTRudeness is epidemic these days — especially on the web. One of the reasons I always read your blog is that you and your commenters are (for the most part) civil and intent on debating actual issues rather than engaging in flame war shout-downs. Why would I consider taking advice from anyone who is too dim to even know how to behave in a public forum? What could he possibly ‘teach’ me other than how ugly and petty his own little life is?
Please don’t apologize to them, Rachel. They’re not worthy of your attention or time.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:49 pmESTShocked that atheists behave like atheists. After all, who’s to hold them (ultimately) accountable? I respect and am grateful for certain atheists who comport themselves well in civil company, but I am not in the least taken aback by others whose behavior accurately reflects their nihilist anti-belief system. Nor am I surprised at the potential for vitriol from my fellow believers, given our inherently sinful natures.
In other words, people are dicks.
And please read this only as a cordial criticism of what I believe to be a flawed and dangerous philosophy, as opposed to a targeted attack on any individual (though NRen2k5 clearly warrants a smackdown).
June 9th, 2008 at 9:05 pmESTI’m not going to get into this dead-horse beating about who is an asshole and who isn’t. It angers me that the thoughts and words of others have forced you to keep from publishing what you want on your site.
With that, I hope you enjoyed the non-funny pictures of my dogs and I continue to pray for all of you.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:14 pmESTProps to Craig, he said something pretty profound in the comments on another post…
“Listen to understand, not to refute.”
A couple of visitors would have saved a lot of grief on everyone around here if they had kept that in mind, when they read the original post.
Many commentors on both sides of this have expressed themselves very well, but there is a large difference between a public debate, and being a guest.
Rachel did not go to their site, and announce “There are no Atheists…”, they came here, to her home. There is dang little excuse for coming in here and being, if nothing else, rude. And if your first comment on this site is to imply that our hostess does not appreciate the sacrifices of ANY servicemember, well, you are not only rude, but you might well be ignorant as well. You might want to get that looked at.
Fortunately, while stupidity is terminal, ignorance (and rudeness) are curable. When Rachel announces plans for a debate, “Resolved: There are no atheists in foxholes”, we can all come in here, debate the factual merits of a historical quote, and announce our intent to amend the saying to “There is a statistically lower percentage of Atheists to be found in foxhole that can generally be found in the total population.” with provisions for the U.S. vs other countries, the impact of Christianity (both evangelical and otherwise), Islam, Wicca and other organized religions on percentages of Atheists, etc. Or we might resolve that the horrors of war result in a statistically higher number of Atheists in foxholes. We can then move on to “Resolved: Rachel Lukas shall be persecuted by P.E.T.A. for the ongoing abuse of her pets for fun and profit, the abuse committed because Miss Lukas is allowed unsupervised use of a digital camera and internet access”.
The point is that the post was not an invitation to debate, it was the reflections and observations of a woman enduring a crucible in her personal life. Listen to understand, not refute. She merely asked for support and understanding during a difficult time, when her desire is for abuse, I’m sure that she will ask at that time, and of course, as loyal minions, we will provide.
DanB
June 9th, 2008 at 9:17 pmESTBTW, I prayed for Rupert’s Dad and Rupert’s family.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:17 pmESTI think there are more atheists here than the religious people think, we usually just keep our mouth shut about it unless the topic is religion or lack there of.
These rude so called atheists are no different than religious zealots who believe the answer to any question is that it’s gods will. Both are equally obnoxious.
In my opinion ban these idiots from ever posting here again they use the excuse of being offended to justify their lack of manners.
and by the way irregardless is a word my dictionary says so.
irregardless (îr´î-gärd´lîs) adverb
Non-Standard.
Regardless.
[Perhaps from ir(respective) + regardless.]
Usage Note: The label Non-Standard does only approximate justice to the status of irregardless. More precisely, it is a form that many people mistakenly believe to be a correct usage in formal style but that in fact has no legitimate antecedents in either standard or nonstandard varieties. (The word was likely coined from a blend of irrespective and regardless.) Perhaps this is why critics have sometimes insisted that there is “no such word” as irregardless, a charge they would not think of leveling at a bona fide nonstandard word such as ain’t, which has an ancient genealogy.
Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
It automatically adds this when ever I copy/past something
Also I hope Joe gets better soon
June 9th, 2008 at 9:22 pmESTbest regards
An atheiest.
Defending one’s own blog-territory is not rude. The atheists came in with their pitifully pedantic guns a’blazing. That’s rude. And telling.
Giving ‘em five across the eyes is just good sense, and perfectly within the bounds of the escalation of hostilities.
This blog-ground is not in dispute, so no amount of children crying for “fairness” holds any sway. Don’t like it? Go write your own blog post and track it back. But don’t shit in someone else’s living room, even if that is the way you conduct yourself in your own home.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:30 pmESTI’d like you to point out where anyone advocated prayer as a replacement for medical treatment.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:44 pmESTHaving traveled a lot I’ve met a lot of people. Many of those people have been atheists. What is the one thing that most of them shared: a ridiculously large opinion of themselves and their own beliefs colored by the certainty that anybody who believes in God is a complete moron. I’ve met exactly one person who claims to be an atheist/agnostic who has absolutely no problem with other people believing in God and has even admitted that if his life hits the skids badly enough he may start believing in God, if only because he’s seen how it brings peace to many people in bad situations.
Another atheist, it’s apparent you think you’re pretty sneaky with your comments here, thinking you can come in and insult Rachel (and us dumb redneck hillbillies who just don’t know any better) and get away with it. It’s nice to know there are people out there like you who would take a very personal thing like praying for somebody else and turn it into something that would offend that person. If they just wanted to tell you to get better, they’d tell you to get better. Asking God to help with your healing and suffering is, for anybody who prays, like asking the most important person you know for a favor even if you feel you don’t deserve it. I’m sure those people you know who pray for you when you’re sick would be relieved to know just how much you shit over their concern.
Heather, I totally have a girl crush on you right now.
In any case, Rachel, those of us who are your regular readers love you and only wish the best for you and your family. Don’t apologize to those asswipes. If you feel you need to stop posting about your family because of over-sensitive pricks who can’t get over themselves and their massive God complexes (you heard me) I’ll be sad, but nobody should have to deal with this level of acrimony.
To the jerk atheists: Please see Heather’s comment above. And if you’d like to throw my religion back in my face about it (because I do believe in God) I’ll direct you to my ex-boyfriend who once told me I was going to Hell. My response to him: Fuck you.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:44 pmESTI don’t usually say much here, but this one makes me feel like I’ve been kicked in the gut.
I am horrified at what has been said in the comments on Rachel’s site today. It doesn’t matter ONE BIT whether it’s from Christians or Athiests. Rachel’s website is fun and informative. It’s NOT a place for flaming and name calling.
Rachel, I think you should SHUT DOWN the troublemakers. Delete their crap and ban them from your site. Block them from your email, too. This is complete bullshit and it’s the last thing you need right now. Plus, ignoring them will piss them off more than anything else. Their heads will explode in frustration and you can focus on important things.
I’d do it for you if I could. You know I would.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:46 pmESTI don’t think there is any defending to do. Rachel, just stand your ground and continue to ask for prayers from whomever are inclined to pray for your loved ones. Done.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:46 pmESTWhat is the one thing that most of them shared: a ridiculously large opinion of themselves and their own beliefs colored by the certainty that anybody who believes in God is a complete moron.
As I’ve always said, strong doctrinal atheism requires as much faith as the most fervent evangelical fundamentalism.
I’ve met exactly one person who claims to be an atheist/agnostic who has absolutely no problem with other people believing in God and has even admitted that if his life hits the skids badly enough he may start believing in God,
Wanna go for two? I’m an admitted agnostic, which to me means that I’m simply humble enough to admit I don’t know what the hell’s going on when it comes to the unknowable, and won’t take someone else’s word for it. But whatever works for you is fine with me, as long as you don’t try to stuff it down everyone else’s throat.
I feel no more compulsion to pander to egotistical atheists whose faith tells them they’re the highest being in the universe than I do to pander to the Jehovah’s Witnesses that knock on occasion.
Is there life after death? I’m sure we’ll all find out for certain soon enough, but I’m in no hurry to dispel my ignorance.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:53 pmESTOh, Mohamed masticating a muffaletta, Rachel! To bend a great quote all out of whack, “Millions of words for debate, but not a word of apology!”
Grace and kindness are not the forte of atheists, in my experience, some noteable examples notwithstanding.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:53 pmESTRachel, don’t even dare apologize to those asshats! They don’t deserve it for any reason. What you expressed to us was from your heart; and we all care more for you because of that.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:56 pmESTIf the atheists are so troubled and offended by your use of a common phrase that has been around since Christ was a Corporal, then they are displaying grave insecurity in the absolute correctness and infalibility of their beliefs. Screw them! If anyone should apologize, it is them (but don’t hold your breath waiting for that). Most atheists are far more evangelical than even the hardest-core Christians that I know; and become absolutely livid that you won’t see and believe in (religiously?) their world-view. They seem in the main - to be quite thin-skinned and prone to ranting and uncontrolable drooling and spittle-spraying. Ignore them. Delete them if they’re rude. It’s your blog and you pay the freight. Therefore, you make the rules. If they don’t like it, there are places for them to go where they’ll be appreciated (and even listened to).
Personally, I’ve been in more than a few “foxholes” all over the world, and haven’t found any atheists when the shit was well and truly flying through the fan. [And Pat Tillman was no atheist.]
I like hearing about your family - as do many others here - and hope that you don’t cut us off from them; but I do understand if you don’t post about them. There’s no reason for them to become collateral victims of the driveby trolls and flamers like the bunch that hit here in the past couple of days.
I’m still praying for Joe and all of the family; and I’m glad things are looking somewhat better for him.
P.S.: what’s up with “future in-laws”? Explanation, please.
Atheism, in the biggest case of irony this world has ever seen, has become what they commonly rail against- an organized religion. If I didn’t believe in God, I sure as heck wouldn’t subscribe to the b.s. they chew up and spit out. And I wouldn’t even call myself an atheist, purely because of the loose organizational attachment.
By the way, I’m hoping there wasn’t ever any confusion about the Joe that Rachel is speaking of. I am obviously not him. Of course if he has posted under the name Joe before, then things will get even more confusing. In the meanwhile, God Bless.
June 9th, 2008 at 9:59 pmESTBrad,
You have failed to notice that the limits of your observation is an observation of your limits.
Or, in other words, you are suffering from instrumentation error. You’re a professor of science, you should understand.
You observe atheists. Period. And which atheists do you observe? The ones who are vocal about it. The ones who have something to prove. The ones with a point.
And why are they out to convert you? Fanaticism. That’s the only reason. You’re only observing the fanatics.
Ours is not an evangelical religion. What use is a convert? Converts are not saved, except perhaps from wasting a little bit of time, or spending a little extra money on religious baubles. If I wanted to save people a little time and a little money I’d do better to convert them away from golfing, it eats more time out of the schedules of most golfers than religion does out of the schedules of most of the people who pretend to believe.
Do we win converts to the cause of rationality? Not really. I’ve met many atheists who believe in crystal therapy and homeopathy, and I’d much rather steer people away from the truly dangerous beliefs. Homeopathy can get people killed from diseases that are real, and are dangerous. I’m much more likely to spend time fighting that garbage than I am fighting religion.
Brad, I seriously have no reason to convert you. I have no reason to care, particularly, what you believe in, especially if you’re not going around and shoving it on me. Suggesting that my belief is somehow irrational, or that atheists are childish, does offend me, and I will defend them on general principle (because a perception of atheists does reflect on me. I’m a very honest person, and if people ask me what religion I am, or if I believe in God, the answer is “none of your business” or “no.” I don’t lie).
But other than that, no, I frankly do not give a darn if you want to give 10% of your income to the Church, gambling, or prostitutes. The church is probably the slightly better target for your income (a lot of them, in all fairness, do good work, and only a few of them front for terrorists) but it’s your income, your life. Get a cross tattoo, read the bible for 6 hours a day, pray on the streets, see if I care. Because frankly, I won’t. I hope it makes you happy, and I hope you get satisfaction, and I wish you all the best.
I will only complain if it ends up spilling onto other people like kicking children out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist, or nonsense like Sharia law (an abomination on the face of this planet).
So will you ever count me Brad? Will you ever see me, meet me, have me tell you that you should be an atheist? I doubt it, because I doubt you’re the sort of person who would try to force their religion on me. And because of that, I’m never going to have a reason to tell you it’s nonsense.
Actually the far more relevant thing is that you’re a Science professor. As an Engineer, I think it’s my professional duty to tell you that you guys are all more than a little cracked.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:00 pmESTGood Grief! I’ve enjoyed your posts about religions and the debates you’ve started and supported in your comments. I “got it.”
You’ve shown more patience than I would. There is no freedom of speech at a personal blog, period. I’d have deleted ‘em all, and given them the bird.
Oh, and I’m still praying for Joe and family, including you. Because you asked nicely.
Manners, civil discourse, whatever - is noticeably absent from the internet. Take that for whatever it’s worth.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:01 pmESTThough I disagree with them, I do admire the zeal of “evangelical atheists.” To hear them talk, one would almost think they were animated by something remarkable and passionate, something capable of feeling a responsibility to improve the lives of its fellow men — something almost sui generis. It’s a pity they’re so eager to write it off as a derived effect of electrical impulses and chemical reactions. To me it seems like an equation written by a madman: 1 + 2 = orange!
No disrespect intended to the “live-and-let-live” atheists. Honesty in epistemology is almost always a good thing, even for a religious person.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:05 pmESTAnother Atheist: So the offence taken by some atheists at Rachel’s post title is reasonable and justified the intrusion into the support/prayer gathering that was in progress for a gentleman in a coma, but the offence Rachel (and her commenters) took to the timing and manner of the response should be reconsidered?
What a hypocrite! The timing was wrong and you and your lot were (and are) being insensitive. Accept that, show some decency and go away.
Well said, DanB
June 9th, 2008 at 10:05 pmESTI don’t really know where I am on this subject. Sometimes I believe, sometimes I want to believe, and sometimes I’m rational.
I do know enough not to ridicule other people for their beliefs or lack thereof.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:09 pmESTOh, I hope you don’t have to stop mentioning your loved ones here, although I understand why you might want to. May I reprint here the first part of Bill Whittle’s comment policy? I like the tone it sets. You have far better things to do with your time than give bandwidth to idiots who take your simple request of good thoughts for a loved one in need and turn it into a useless, hurtful, philosophical goatfuck. The delete key is your friend:
June 9th, 2008 at 10:12 pmESTRachel, I read about this on Sunday night. I have been praying for Joe and his family and you and Rupert ever since. I hope that you do feel comfortable giving us some kind of update, once you have something to share.
I am at a loss as to what else to say. I think everyone else has covered my shock and disbelief at how callous and rude some people can be. I wish it hadn’t happened to you at this time.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:23 pmESTMighty Samurai.
Really?
You just explained a lot about yourself that if I suggested about you would have gotten me a hail of insults for my insensitivity.
You have no real concept of atheism at all do you? I have a concept of being a believer, I’m just not. But to explain away atheism in such a manner is just shocking. Wow, just wow.
It is true, I have never seen proof of God, and I am not convinced by the fancy preachers on TV, so therefore, I must be giving the middle finger to the “Man”. I look at inconsistencies in all written religions and find them puzzling so I am just trying to be “cool”. I look into my heart of heart and despite my desire for something more than “this” , I cannot lie to myself ( and y’all) and claim to believe something I simply don’t, then to you, I am simpy a self prociamed “edgy- intellectual”?
Is that what you really think?
You amaze me.
You are so wrong. Wrong to the point of explaining just why people on the fence reject religion, even if they are looking for it. You ruin it for people. You really do.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:30 pmESTDear Rachel,
My favorite Far Side comic ever features God in his workshop, messing around with what looks like a chemistry set.
He’s got a globe (the Earth) and some boxes of stuff, (like cereal boxes), labeled Light Skinned People and Dark Skinned People
and one more box labeled “jerks” and this one He is sprinkling on the Earth while mumbling to himself “…and just to make things interesting…”
Anyway, I am a white devout Christian and a strong Republican. But many of my friends are atheists and Democrats…and blacks, Jews, and gays etc., I don’t care, the common thread is that those with whom I associate are decent.
I am very sorry that you’ve been inundated with jerks who happen to be atheists. Some atheists are quite nice. My favorite writer is an atheist, Ayn Rand.
Ayn Rand said she was not at all bothered by religious people who said to her, on occasion, “God bless you.” She reasoned that this was because a religious person deems that as the highest order of a best wish for someone - and so she accepted the blessing happily. But Ayn Rand was gracious.
I continue to pray for my atheist friends. My atheist friends are gracious.
But - I gotta tell ya - you just can’t reach the jerks…
God Bless you and yours,
f
June 9th, 2008 at 10:31 pmESTLOL
June 9th, 2008 at 10:32 pmESTIt’s Rachel’s blog, she can do what she likes with it.
The thread bashing Rachel:
Truly an enlightened group. The seem real fond the word “bigot”. I hate to be the rainer of parades here but I have every bit as much right to think you are a bunch of ass hats as you have to believe in whatever-the-fuck-it-is-you-believe.
Free thinkers? Yeah except for the freedom think to the contrary of what you might believe then I am a bigot. Home Depot does not have as many fucking tools as your forum.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:32 pmEST“Always remember that it is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood: there will always be some who misunderstand you.”
June 9th, 2008 at 10:34 pmEST– Karl Raimund Popper
I don’t know what is so difficult about respecting your request that the thread was for prayers and good thoughts that might soothe and uplift those who were hurting.
If the dissenters had even come in and said something like…”I might quibble with the notion that there are no atheists in fox holes, I nonetheless hope for complete recovery for your friend.” We wouldn’t be having this thread.
Nope - instead they came in with guns blazing accusing you of disrespecting the military - which anyone who’s read the blog for any brief period of time knows is just not the way it is.
Certainly some have had a civil tone, but several were definitely being an ass.
My favorite atheist story: I believe in God but haven’t been around organized religion much for many years. I work in an Operating Room and several of the surgeons are atheists. One is fanatic and gets ugly and condescending every time the issue comes up. The other is much more jocular about it.
The jocular one was having some trouble gaining access to a particular part of the anatomy one day and after fussing around for probably 15 minutes said something like “if I can get in here, it’s going to be a miracle from God.”
About 15 seconds later the anatomy opened up and he achieved success. He turned about 3 shades of purple and some of us just smiled:)
Your blog, your rules, delete away to your heart’s content. Their problem - not yours.
And your family does remain in my thoughts and prayers.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:36 pmESTAllen, what makes you think the “your” in “I scoff at your prayers” was singular? Unfounded assumptions?
Okay, it was singular, score one for Allen. I’ll never get it. QED.
While it may be true that many people can show their best traits through holding a belief in a deity, it is equally true that many people can show their best traits without any such belief, so I don’t see your point. I guess you can add that to your list of things I’ll never get.
I’m sorry to hear you lost your wife, and I agree that the people who offered you (plural) their prayers were probably sincere, really did pray, and thought they had thereby accomplished something.
I think the person who suggested keeping a notebook with questions (and observations) for the doctor accomplished more than all the well-intentioned pledges of prayer on the board. When the doctor stops by for a few minutes during his rounds, grabbing that opportunity to exchange information with someone who makes treatment decisions will have more effect on the patient’s recovery than all the prayers put together.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:38 pmESTWhy don’t you post my entire statement so people can judge for themselves what I said? Editing out the comments that showed I was sincere and not attacking you is unfortunate.
People were not attacking you Rachel, until a number of people piled on Foxhole Atheist for a simple post explaining why the cliche offends some people.
Perhaps if people took an extra minute to understand where a person was coming from, and perhaps if people considered they might not be the only person hurting in this world, we would find the world was a different place than the one we so quickly judged.
[Your comment is present in its entirety as it was originally posted. I didn't quote the entire thing on this post in order to save space, and also in order to leave Joe completely out of this particular discussion. And you should take your own advice: "Perhaps if people took an extra minute to understand where a person was coming from, and perhaps if people considered they might not be the only person hurting in this world, we would find the world was a different place than the one we so quickly judged." Exactly. You are smart. And I deleted your link to the forum discussion because I don't want my boyfriend's family to read the shit some of your people wrote there. You have to know what I'm talking about. If my readers want to find it, it's easy enough to do. I'll email it to anyone who asks. Sorry. - Rachel]
June 9th, 2008 at 10:44 pmESTHi Rachel
June 9th, 2008 at 10:47 pmESTStill lurkin a lot. I agree with many commenters here; you do not owe these atheists an apology. This blog is your property to do with as you please, and I don’t think you have to explain your actions to anyone.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks
Dana
The original European settlers came here to escape religious persecution, my, how far we have come. Believe what you’d like to, Sparky. Just because someone doesnt agree with you does not invalidate your beliefs. Let people pray. What difference could it possibly make to you? I hate to be the one to burst your bubble but atheism is a fairly leaky vessel as well. The day it can satisfactorily explain everything then sign me up but it cant so as of now I get to sit on the fence making fun of both sides.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:47 pmESTWriter’s Blockhead, I never claimed that anyone who is praying is advocating terminating medical treatment (though certainly there are religious people who DO take their faith to that extreme). What I said is that most of the people offering prayers here are doing nothing more than that, and patting themselves on the back that by praying they’re making a real difference.
If the family is cheered by the thought of more signatures on the petition to the Almighty, then maybe it’s important to let them know you’re praying for them whether you’re really praying or not. Allen said he was “warmed” by theist sincerity, though he believes in no deity himself. Maybe what’s important is to comfort the family, even though prayers will have no effect on the patient’s recovery.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:50 pmESTC’mon, Skeptigirl, Foxhole Atheist’s comment was sarcastic and downright shitty, in context.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:52 pmESTRachel, sorry, I had to vent. I truly hope he pulls through fine. Best wishes.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:00 pmESTI have great respect for this person, who left this post on the atheist forum*:
Thank you for your humanity. And for using the scientific method to base your arguments as to what is true (please pardon my loose interpretation of this methodology, but you do get the point).
It is my understanding that a strong atheist bases his/her beliefs solely upon what can be found using the scientific method.
Ask a Question – “Was posting to Rachel’s thread about Joe’s accident an inappropriate forum to espouse atheist ideology and inform about our belief system?”
Do Background Research — Read the reactions from those who populate the site at which you are trying to inform.
Construct a Hypothesis — “It is possible that posting to this thread was inappropriate and thus we should apologize and encourage others to stop until a more appropriate forum is opened by the hostess. This will legitimize the reason we are posting at this site in the first place and thus make our argument more cogent.”
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment — Continue posting in the inappropriate location and see whether the rational arguments are removed or internalized by the desired audience.
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion — Analysis of data indicates audience is not receptive at this time and therefore we should broach this subject at a more appropriate time when others may be receptive to rational discourse. Our point will be just as valid and infinitely more valued at that time.
Communicate Your Results – Logic didn’t trump on the thread at which you initially posted, sir, but I believe it will here.
Good on you.
Oh and you can all rip on me now because I don’t “get” the scientific method. Go ahead — as my granmomma said, “the L**** girls have big shoulders for carrying the load and big asses for sitting on to cushion the weight.”
[I agree Heather, and thank you. I removed the direct link to the forum at the top of your post for the same reason I removed it from Skeptigirl's - there were things said there early on that make it so I just can't host a link to the place, seeing as how Joe's family might read this. If anyone wants a link to the forum, email me or check the "website" ID's of some of the original atheist posters on the other thread. They link to the forum and can be searched from there. I haven't read that thread since last night but it's nice to know at least someone there is being a decent human being. - Rachel]
Sorry, Rachel, I didn’t read the whole thing, I just got to that post, breathed a sigh of relief and wanted to share it with others. The last thing I wanted to do was make it worse for you and the in-laws (yeah, we all noticed …)
June 9th, 2008 at 11:05 pmESTAnother atheist, that is exactly what people have been trying to do.
A debate over the merits or lack thereof of praying does precisely NOTHING to comfort the family at this time. Neither does taking offence to an adage used as a title to a blog post and then intruding on the comments section to throw your little shitfit of pragmatism, especially after specifically being asked by the blog hostess not to be negative as she hoped the family would read the comments to get some of the very comfort you are talking about.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:06 pmESTAnd we come back to Rachel’s request in that thread. Praying isn’t going to hurt (so she asked those of us inclined, to do so) and if it provides comfort to the family - where’s the harm? Why was it necessary to hijack a thread in a mean-spirited way?
June 9th, 2008 at 11:09 pmESTRight, we’re the rude ones.
Who said you didn’t have that right? We’re just asserting our right to call you a bigoted jackass. See how that works?
The strawmanning in this thread is hilarious. Of course Rachel can do whatever the fuck she wants with her blog. Show me where anyone’s said otherwise. Nobody’s claimed their constitutional rights were being violated. Nobody’s threatened to sue her (unlike one commenter who told Rachel she should sue an atheist commenter, presumably for the new tort of “rudeness”), report her to the police, government, or the Grand Atheist Inquisition.
Again, go back to the beginning, folks. Foxhole Atheist posted a short, simple, polite message. Maybe it was out of place, maybe it wasn’t, and I agree that it’s Rachel’s call in any event. But if you’re going to claim that FA was the rude one, when it was you guys who started with the insults and epithets, expect to get called on your bullshit.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:13 pmESTHi, Rachel. Atheist here, echoing the general thrust of the “f*ck ‘em” replies.
This pack of oversensitive twits are cut from the same cloth as those douchebags who see the dread hand of Christian oppression in every nativity scene visible from a public area, and pitch an absolute hissy fit over Christmas trees.
Tell you what guys, if your pwecious widdle selves are so fragile that something this freaking trivial sets you in a tizzy - ESPECIALLY in this place and IN THE GIVEN CONTEXT - then you need to give some serious thought to why you’re so easily rattled. Maybe you’ve got a bad case of god and don’t even know it yet.
At the very least, quit putting those of us who don’t believe in god but AREN’T a bunch of shrill, bitchy little scolds in the position of apologizing for your kind everytime the subject comes up.
Thanks.
Jackasses.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:15 pmESTRachel, the bashing thread link is also in one of Woodie’s comments. I sure wish it hadn’t been posted. I clicked on it and it was very ugly. Definitely not the sort of thing I come here to see.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:17 pmESTIt’s not you Rachel,
Some people are born to stick their heads up their asses. There is no other explanation.
As an atheist, I appreciate both the foxhole, and prayers sentiments fully. It’s easy and offends no one except the “head up the arsehole” impaired.
All my best for Rupert’s father rapid and full recovery. If that constitutes a prayer, I don’t care.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:19 pmESTThanks for the potty mouth, Mr. or Ms. Example of Religious Upbringing. You seem to be in good company; I’ve seen more eye-bulging rants here in twenty minutes from people who seem to regard themselves as religious than I’ve seen in twenty years from the religious people who surround me in real life.
And they don’t know that I regard their prayers as a waste of breath, because I don’t feel the need to share that with them. For the most part, that’s just how they were raised, and their beliefs don’t affect me any more than mine affect them. They feel the need to share, because that’s what the culture encourages, or because they’re evangelicals who think their religion requires it.
I appreciate their concern, and I take it as the expression of love that it is. I don’t appreciate their prayers any more than you would likely appreciate a witch doctor who earnestly promised to slaughter a chicken to lift the curse that was making you ill. The fact that people can become as livid as they’ve become here when someone says, in the most civil tones possible, that prayer is a similar superstition, is the reason I tend to keep such opinions to myself in real life.
On an anonymous “itching for a fight” thread on the internet, I have no need to be so “sneaky.”
June 9th, 2008 at 11:31 pmESTI don’t comment very often. First off, I’ll repeat what some others have said: Rachel has no need to apologize. Rachel has had plenty of other religious discussion posts before, so I don’t think that its fair to call her a bigot about anything. What I don’t fully understand is how some people seem to have entirely missed the point about her post. She wasn’t trying to start an argument, she wasn’t making any general claims about anyone. She used a very old quote as a way of making other people understand how she was feeling, not to tell other people about themselves. My theory is that the people who came on and started the atheist debate were either self-centered enough that they didn’t realize that it wasn’t an attack against them, or they have some kind of evangelical agenda that they saw an opportunity to push. In either case, all I can say is “lurk more.” There are all kinds of places to have serious discussions about religion. The comment section of a post talking about the misfortunes of the webmistress’ loved ones is most certainly not it. I saw the attempt by many to make themselves appear as an offended party as simply a piece of childish maneuvering. Logically, if their goal was simply to try to inform other people, they had to realize that a post about someone’s family was not a place where a debate would be very welcome. I happen to be a Christian, and I also happen to enjoy discussions about religion, provided that they are intelligent, and appropriate. I don’t tell people who are atheists that I will pray for them, and likewise if someone offers their sympathy to me, but also says something along the lines of “I’m not the praying type.” I appreciate their honesty. But when I’m having bad times and someone says, “Your praying is futile, and I am offended.” I tell them to go hell. Rachel, I’ve been praying for you, and Rupert’s family. Hopefully, in the future, people will stop to consider the purpose of your articles a bit more before they decide to get offended.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:32 pmESTHeather,
June 9th, 2008 at 11:41 pmESTThanks. I’m not sure what I used was the scientific method (more like human understanding), but I agree that anyone who attempts to call themselves rational without understanding other people’s writing and the thoughts, feelings, and reasoning behind it is doomed to have irrational reactions.
I did not intend any offense by my presumption of the mechanisms at which you arrived at your conclusions; please understand I was merely attempting to interpret them within my own mind by placing those conclusions within the accepted definition of “strong atheist” as an exercise in understanding. I respect your assessment of this situation, no matter how you arrived at it.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:55 pmESTFuck the assholes, Rachel, and write for the rest of us, if that’s what you want. But if you can’t or don’t think it’s worth it, we’ll understand and blame the responsible parties for it, not you.
Rupert’s dad and his entire family are certainly in both my thoughts AND my prayers.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:03 amESTI think the underlying principle here, is that ‘believer’ is another word for ‘arrogant’.
And atheism is definitely, in religious terms, a belie system.
Arrogant or believer, Christian, atheist, or other, the person holds a firm notion of a personal understanding of truth. And people just won’t discuss reasonably, where the topic is firmly held truth.
Now, please excuse me. I need to go read Uncle Tom’s Cabin. I am trying to understand Barack Obama’s candidacy.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:10 amESTDear Ms. Lucas,
I’m sorry about the pain your family is going through. And I appreciate - really! - the honesty you share in your blog.
I’m also sorry that some people don’t understand - really! - that posting about themselves being right in a thread about family grief is really just boorish, like insisting on having their point of view expressed in a religious funeral.
I hope you have had time to get away from the blog and be with your family (including the lovely dogs), because they get you back in touch with reality.
I’m not sure what it is that causes the trigger finger of some folks to fly off to the point of being simply rude and then exclaiming, “Oh, I might have said something inappropriate that caused a strong reaction, but it’s your fault for reacting.”
Well, good for you that you are continuing to maintain a fairly public blog. The Delete button is your friend.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:16 amESTAnother Atheist,
No actually I don’t think they thought they were changing something. In fact, if I understand it correctly their prayers are not outcome based.
Anyone with a passing knowledge of Christianity understands that Christians realize that many times the answer to a prayer is “No.”
What was important is that people who hold something so deeply personal they gave to me, without a qualm.
Yet some find a nearly 70 year old quote as “offensive.”
Yes I scoff at the latter.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:17 amESTAs requested, I just went back to the beginning again. Foxhole Atheist’s comment, while short and simple, was not “polite”. It was sarcastic and sneering. The first people who called him on it were not rude, they simply suggested strongly that this was not the appropriate time or place for such a comment.
Let my try again: Rachel stated up front that she hoped the family would read the post and the comments and get some comfort from the kind sentiments expressed there, which she can usually count on from her regular commenters. To intrude at such a time with a rant about how offended you were by the post title and the uselessness of every one of the prayers and good wishes being offered to Rachel is downright, unquestionably, inexcusably rude. You were called on that. You came here, you wanted our attention and you got it. Now SUCK IT UP!
June 10th, 2008 at 12:23 amESTAfter popping over and reading all those anti-Rachel posts by a bunch of crybaby atheists all I can say is - FUCK THEM!
They apparently troll around looking for things to be offended about?? How pathetic is that?! Guess they don’t have any real problems to deal with so they have to go after this kind of stuff.
And as for NRen2k5 - I am certain that I would have to pop him in the mouth if he/she/it were within arm reach. I know that really it’s Rupert’s job, but since he has enough to worry about I figure I could do that for him.
Apologize?? HELL NO!
June 10th, 2008 at 12:24 amESTI don’t want to get embroiled in an atheist versus believer fight (I’m a non-militant atheist myself)… but just wanted to re-send good wishes for Rupert’s dad, and also for the rest of you and your family (including the dogs).
June 10th, 2008 at 12:26 amESTProof that it doesn’t matter what the context, if the phrase is googled, you’re phucked …
This is the actual post on the actual thread, and these folks are actually trolling for this one phrase — doesn’t matter the context — so they can descend like a swarm of angry locusts rather than seeking intelligent discourse. I actually feel sad for these people. I can understanded being offended by a phrase that was shoved in your face but not directly aimed at you as an individual (sorry again, f), but to actively seek that phrase, feign offense when you find it and then witch hunt the originator? They have medication for that, folks. Goooood, haaaappy medication. And ECT.
EDIT:
Oops, Instinct, missed your post because I was posting. We must be dr(th)inking the same thing!
June 10th, 2008 at 12:26 amESTGreat minds think alike, Heather. : D
Oh - Picasso smiley “) get it
I actually read through their ‘writings’ and I must say that the thread had probably the highest concentration of self righteous assholes that I have seen in one spot.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:33 amESTI love that … is it from the Cubist period? It also kind of looks like downhill skier smiley!
Totally agree there. Arrogant prigs, and I just loved the infighting … no respect for anyone but him/her self … when they find the center of the universe, it’s gonna suck, because it will be EVERYONE at that site, which will cause an immediate implosion after which we all wink out of existence. THEN we’ll see ‘)’D (Abstract smiley — look closer).
June 10th, 2008 at 12:38 amESTHi Rach. Long time reader, very rare commenter.
I’m an atheist, hell, probably even a militant atheist. I do find that “no atheists in foxholes” saying as offensive & condesending as all get out. Then again, I’ve no doubt that Christians, Bhuddists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus & animists find some of the stuff I say pretty offensive too. Anyway, my point is when I first read the title of that post, for a split second I was angry. But on reading the body of the text it was patently obvious that that was not the time & place for a fight.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:48 amESTRachel:
My two cents - don’t apologize. They were the ones who crashed your “party” and there is no need to apologize to party crashers.
There are jerks all over. Some claim to be Christian, some claim to be atheists, some claim to be “insert belief system here“. Doesn’t matter - a jerk is as a jerk does. In Shakespeare’s words, “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”.
As a Christian, I know I shouldn’t judge other people, but as a human it’s difficult not to. I cannot imagine saying some of the things I’ve read here to another person no matter how much I disliked them. There is no defense for such crassness.
Anonymity and/or a strong belief system does not justify a$$hole behavior. Where is basic human decency? I simply don’t understand why others think it’s OK to be disparaging and/or downright rude to someone for using a somewhat common saying to describe the emotional pain they are experiencing.
Oh, and before anyone jumps on me for using the word “party”, I’m using it in the context of “gathering”, not “celebrating”. “Gathering crashers” just doesn’t have the same ring.
(Continuing prayers for Joe and the rest of the family, for the best of all possible outcomes.)
June 10th, 2008 at 12:50 amESTAnother atheist,
Wow, obviously you know me and where I come from SO well. Oh, and it’s Miss, BTW.
Maybe you should share that tidbit of information about how you really feel about their prayers with people. After all, you seem soooo concerned about people wasting their time with fantasy. Maybe you could save them all that wasted good will.
Should somebody decide sacrificing a chicken would be the best way to express their very personal belief that that would be the best way to make me or one of my family well, I’d actually be quite touched. Oddly enough, my belief in God also includes the idea that if a prayer is offered in sincerity the form doesn’t really matter.
I don’t know Rachel personally and she rarely ever responds to my comments but I consider her to be a friend. And one thing that is apparent to anybody who takes the time to get to know me is that I don’t let people screw with my friends. Your comment was an underhanded bitch-slap to Rachel (and all the other good people here) and given the fact that Rachel is hurting right now I wasn’t going to take that sitting down. I’m going to guess that all the “eye-bulging” rants are coming from the same place. We take care of our own around here.
By all means, continue living in your own little fantasy world. I’ll continue living in mine.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:53 amEST“I don’t know nothing about birthing no babies” is a 70-year-old quote that some people would find offensive too. Is there a statute of limitations after which it becomes inoffensive? Is it okay to say “One cannot be both a German and a Jew” now that Mein Kampf has a few years on it?
I’m not offended by the atheists in foxholes quote, but apparently some military personnel want to let people know that it isn’t true.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:07 amESTYour comment is present in its entirety as it was originally posted. … And you should take your own advice: “Perhaps if people took an extra minute to understand where a person was coming from, and perhaps if people considered they might not be the only person hurting in this world, we would find the world was a different place than the one we so quickly judged.”…Rachel Lucas
Thank you for putting it back. … Takes deep breath, starts over.
As I said in the forum discussion, my response was a reaction to the numerous posts bashing Foxhole Atheist for merely pointing out the title of your blog was offensive to some people. And as I said in the forum post, it is understandable you didn’t realize it was offensive and you seem to be saying you didn’t mean to offend anyone.
If you then were just reacting to the reactions to the reactions, then maybe many of us are misunderstanding where most people are coming from here.
Christians and other god believers are offended when atheists state their beliefs. Theists find no offense in telling people they should believe in gods, but they take great offense when atheists tell people that belief in gods is magical thinking and perhaps there are better things one could do instead. Just my calling it ‘magical thinking’ offends god believers.
It is a touchy line to be crossing when someone is either grieving or in a situation such as yours. I don’t confront magical thinking when people are grieving. It is part of the grieving process and helps people get through it. And I don’t usually confront someone who is understandably comforted by asking for prayers and from the hope believing in a god may offer them.
There are times, however, when magical thinking does harm people. Because of that, more and more atheists are speaking out against god beliefs. Right now god beliefs for example, are the reason people cite as objecting to embryonic stem cell research. This is not the question of whether abortion is murder, it is a belief that a single cell in a test tube has a soul. Your future father-in-law might have brain damage that embryonic stem cell research could lead to treatment of. Can you imagine this objection coming from people claiming Zeus forbids it?
As more and more atheists speak out about their beliefs, the results such as the back and forth in this blog are common occurrences. Look at how many posts here are bigoted. And I agree, the nastiness is flowing in both directions. I think that is where the problem is rooted. It is not rooted in someone ignoring your situation and preaching their agenda, at least not consciously. It is rooted in conflicting beliefs.
I’m hoping people can at least see that the reaction to Foxhole Atheist’s post was overkill. If you think people misunderstood your comments, you should be able to see where people overreacted to his(hers?). If you read the comments here attacking people simply because they don’t believe in gods, you might understand why a cliche claiming atheists will all become theists when threatened is becoming offensive to more and more people over time.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:18 amESTRalph Gizzip Says:
Most atheists are just pissed because they’re not the center of the Universe.
Actually, Ralph, the evidence supports the conclusion we are all in the center of the Universe, each and every one of us. We just aren’t in the center of our solar system or our galaxy. In the Biblical version the Earth might be in the center, but it really doesn’t say.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:36 amESTIs your belief system that threated by a pleasantry that you must go find stuff on teh Internets to be offended at and post squalid cries of self-importance?
I read stuff all the time from all types of believers, including atheist believers, and for the life of me I can figure out how reading something I don’t agree with is somehow “threatening” to me or even offensive.
It’s just words, with perhaps thought behind it.
And if there are actual military personnel reading this 70-year-old quote and getting offended by it - well, my understanding of toughness has just been degraded.
Or perhaps “offended” means something completely different than what I imagine it to mean.
I just finished a technical edit project for a belief system that I totally do not agree with. Hours of work. The whole time I was editing it, I read plenty of statements that I disagreed with completely. Yet I did it because a friend requested me to do it, and I didn’t let her know how wrong or stupid she was. I did it because it was a good thing to do for someone.
Can you imagine how boorish I’d be if I were to insert comments throughout the project on how this belief was false, and that statement was a fantasy?
If I were truly offended to the point of obnoxiousness, I would simply decline to edit - which I’ve done for other projects that were really beyond the pale. Never did I consider making a oh-so-self-righteous remark in public that (a) made sure the other person was put into her place, huzzah! and (b) made me look like a jerk to the whole world for my insensitivity.
Rachel shared something honestly and quizzically, and that’s why her friends read her blog (and some of them pop up some money to pay for the privilege).
Speaking of belief, I read a short story years back about coping with the loss of a child. I think it was called “Veritas” (but I could be wrong). The gist is, what do we do when we must cope with the enormous absurdity of life and death? We are such rich, complex individuals and all goes away so quickly. The short story struggled with it, and IIRC, it did not come up with easy answers for any one position.
Dealing with loss or pain, especially of one’s family, is a d**d hard thing to do. It’s not the time to come around and make sure that we all know just how right you are.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:54 amESTI’m pleased to announce the 1st Annual Charity (secular, of course) Powderpuff Football Fundraiser Event Extraordinaire featuring the Lucasites vs. the Funde-Atheists. Sign-up for positions below.
Remember, Lucasites… foxholes, schmockholes… there better not be any atheists in the endzone.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:06 amESTYes, it’s touching, the same way a child’s promise to “ask Santa to bring daddy a new liver” is touching. People who sincerely believe in their ability to perform magic, and who only use their powers for good, never fail to warm the heart.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:34 amESTThinking, thinking all the way through, can never lead one to assert that there is no god.
You will find atheists who will argue that point.
These people are idiots. For some reason they are not only more plentiful than ever before but they constitute a much higher percentage of atheists than ever before.
Thinking might reasonably lead one to agnosticism.
Thinking might reasonably lead one to some of the gentler brands of atheism.
A good many atheists have been propelled there by pathological impetus.
My decades on Earth have given me this experience - while I have met a fair number of affable atheists, the most assertive atheists behave as badly as, as rudely as and worse than religious fanatics.
For many atheists “Live and let live” does not seem to be a thing which they can embrace.
I have neither room nor time in my life to indulge such intolerant people. So, if I must work with them or deal with them I do that. I never argue with them. Because decades ago I came to know that I simply do not care about their opinions. And I’ve lately come to realize that decades ago I was pretty smart for a kid.
I’ve watched Rachel Lucas struggle with the God Question over the years and I regard her as having been graceful and thoughtful and utterly honest.
She’s hosted some of the best back-and-forth on this issue anywhere on the web.
And now she’s being way more gracious to these - I want to say - Human Turds than I would ever be. At a very tender time for her and her loved ones.
It makes me want to hug Rachel and vanquish her detractors.
I’m sending you and yours my best Rachel.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:46 amESTBe well.
It has always boggled my mind that such a large portion of atheists feel so self important, while subscribing to a belief that says they are completely meaningless.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:48 amESTRachel, long time reader, first time commenter. I really enjoy your writing, please do not apologize to the small angry atheists. I pray for your family and for them.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:57 amESTIf that doesn’t cure Joe, and comfort his family, I don’t know what will.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:59 amESTJune 10th, 2008 at 2:59 amEST
Yes, you should apologize because you insulted an entire group of people.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:04 amESTMy point is that magical thinking doesn’t solve nearly as many problems as you seem to think it does. That you regard this as “vitriolic rhetoric” is interesting to say the least.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:09 amESTWhen have I, or anyone else here, ever suggested that “magical thinking” solves problems? Last time I checked, Harry, Ron and Hermione never so much as made an appearance.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:12 amESTDefinition of vitriolic:
“an acerbic tone piercing otherwise flowery prose”; “a barrage of acid comments”;
Definition of rhetoric:
“Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous”
So how do you find my definition of your posts “interesting”? Pray tell, when you use this sentence “Yes, it’s touching, the same way a child’s promise to “ask Santa to bring daddy a new liver” is touching,” wouldn’t you call that acerbic, insincere, elaborate language/prose?
Oh, now, if not, you don’t give yourself enough credit for your linguistic abilities, sir! Or are you just acidic and intellectually vacuous after your trying day bantering with the riders on the short bus?
Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/
June 10th, 2008 at 3:26 amESTGood Lord, I can honestly say I’ve never met somebody with such a big head before. How do you fit through normal-sized doors? Seriously. I wish I was only half as self-assured as you seem to be. Actually, strike that, I’m happy with my self-assuredness level. At least I don’t feel I have some God-given right to behave like an ass when I’m posting on someone else’s blog.
I don’t know how you manage to write with a straight face. This whole act is a joke, right? You try to have everybody believe that you are OK with them doing their religious thing, but in the same breath you all but call us morons and talk down to us like children. Insult me about my religion if you want, but at least have the balls to do it in the open. Don’t talk down to me like a five-year-old. I’m not an idiot. Or do you need me to sign it for you?
At this point I don’t see an reason to push this further. You’ll just continue to show more of your ignorance when it comes to religion and religious people and, well, I’d rather do something more productive with my life than argue with somebody who thinks I’m a moron. Like repeatedly watch movies from MST3K without the riffing. But, by all means, you just keep doing whatever makes you feel more superior to us knuckle-dragging believers in the mystical powers of the universe.
Sorry for dragging this out, Rachel. I should have just kept my typing fingers to myself. I really do pray that Joe comes out OK and that you and his family are able to at least feel some peace in this difficult time. We may not believe the same things, but I think you’re a good person and you and your family totally deserve all the good juju you can get wherever you can get it from.
EDIT:
Heather, you are seriously one of my heroes. I really hope it doesn’t weird you out that I have a girl crush on you.
On another note, I really think Rachel should start selling t-shirts with a picture of her driving a short bus (in her helmet, of course) and underneath it should say: “I ride the short bus” or “Another passenger on the short bus to enlightenment”.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:29 amESThM,
June 10th, 2008 at 3:44 amESTNot weirded in the least, and I’d wear a short bus rider shirt with honor.
I am okay with everybody doing their religious thing (which doesn’t include dragging their creation myths into science classrooms).
I also regard “doing their religious thing” as childish, for the most part. When it comes to the Judeo-Christian tradition, don’t “Our Father” and “Mother Mary” explicitly codify a parent-child relationship in which the worshipers are children? Why does it sound worse coming from me than from the guy in the pew next to you?
I think people who dress up as Robin Hood and go to Renaissance Faires are childish too, as are those who dress up as Klingons or Imperial Storm Troopers and go to sci-fi conventions. Make believe is a childish thing. Acknowledging that doesn’t mean I want to pass laws forbidding childishness. I don’t mind if people engage in harmless games of pretend.
I do wonder sometimes if putting on a public face that denies (to a degree) the pain and suffering that are a natural part of life is really completely harmless. Is it better to pretend that Grandma’s in heaven, and we’ll see her again some day, or to accept her death, grieve openly, and honor her memory? I suppose we all have our own answers to questions like that.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:54 amEST[snip]
That, sir, is a dignified summation of this thread for “my” day. In particular, these parts of your comment are thought provoking and well-phrased. I thank you for an intriguing topic of contemplation for the ‘morrow. Peace out, BYSSES.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:05 amESTRachel darlin’ as an always polite Catholic, I hope you and yours continue to enjoy good health and happiness. I’m praying for you, Rupert (hope his surgery is successful) and Rupert’s dad. Don’t let the whiners and perpetually offended get to you - you keep writing please - you make me think.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:25 amESTSweet 7 pound 8 ounce baby Jesus! I would think an atheist would care less about anything that anyone felt about religion. I mean, do they actually try to convert people? Isn’t being an atheist being a non-believer in any organized religion? And if you did care and did try to covert people to your non-believing beliefs, wouldn’t you have to ORGANIZE and have meetings, have a building for those meetings, have a calander of events and maybe even ask for donations to pay for these things, and maybe even sometimes have a Bingo Night to raise money for your non-believing group and then have groups go out and spread the anti-word?
June 10th, 2008 at 5:26 amESTI have to go lay down now,I’m so confused. Because I thought about becoming an atheist- but now with all these demands- and me being so lazy- I’m re-thinking that choice. I might go with that Flying Spaghetti Monster God or maybe Ceiling Cat.Hmmm.
I’ve tried to resist this thread. Yep: futile.
I’m agnostic because both alternatives seem equally implausible. Either there’s supreme being who can create whole universes at will, or there was nothing, not even time or space, then BOOM — and as the shrapnel cooled, it coalesced into humans talking on iPhones.
You can write a narrative for either possibility that is consistent with known science, but either way you have gaps bigger than Madonna’s front teeth.
The question is not answerable, so I say frak it. Believe whichever one makes you happier. Or accept that you simply cannot know.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:34 amESTTo paraphrase from a comment made to another Rachel Lucas post concerning aisle-blockages:
Look!(pointing at Another Atheist) we’ve found the Center of the Universe! And it appears to revolve around THIS ASSHOLE!
June 10th, 2008 at 6:28 amESTAnother Atheist, you appear to be Fred Phelps with smoother words. Instead of simply being quiet if you don’t wish Rupert’s dad well, or offering your best wishes that Rupert’s dad make a speedy recovery if you do wish him well, you have created post after post after post “preaching” to us blind followers of “magic”.
Do you understand this particular thread is not the place? Although you use gentler words than Fred Phelps and his bunch, Vox Day is entirely correct to place individuals such as you in the “socially autistic” category.
Wish Rupert’s dad well or not, and then go to another thread where Rachel has opened the topic of “What offends atheists?” and post your sermons to your heart’s content.
Craig
June 10th, 2008 at 6:33 amESTSome people leave a comment or two stating their point(s) and move on. Others, as in Another Atheist, choose to belabor the issue and drive the whole thread into the ridiculous ditch.
WE GET IT. Anyone who chooses to wish Joe and the extended family well through prayer is delusional. And you, sir, are the Enlightened One showing us by example why some people are beyond belief (multiple levels there.)
Rachel et al: May the power of prayer and God give Joe and your family strength and comfort and healing through these days of uncertainty. I wish you well.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:44 amESTRachel,
Could you post a picture of Maggie humping an obnoxious atheist while Sunny uses his ear as a chew toy?
Please?
I wonder how many of these self-proclaimed strident atheists had a Christmas tree last December…
June 10th, 2008 at 6:54 amESTHeather,
June 10th, 2008 at 7:04 amESTI wasn’t taking offense, I was just saying what I was posting from. I rarely use the Scientific method in every day life - it’s amazingly useful, but quite long-winded. Thanks for your kind sentiments, if that wasn’t apparent enough from my previous post, they are appreciated.
Wachel -
June 10th, 2008 at 7:16 amESTIgnore the fuckers. You don’t need to explain yourself to anyone. Good grief - you’re dealing with an emotional situation. Tell ‘em to piss off, and I mean that in the kindest way possible.
Rachel: If these asshats were more secure in their own beliefs, they would not be compelled to try to stomp out any hint of “heresy”, no matter how small.
As to responding to them, you might consider what they say down South, when they speak about those less fortunate, less mentally gifted, less than attractive souls:
June 10th, 2008 at 7:16 amESTThat’s an idea! If the atheists keep bugging you, you could start posting a short devotional thought of the day, or a daily Bible verse… like wolfsbane or garlic! Heh.
If that didn’t keep them at bay, you could post links to religious sites and keep them distracted for months!
Let me know if you want to go on the counter attack. I probably have some good Spurgeon quotes you could use!
June 10th, 2008 at 7:28 amESTRachel,
I’m so sorry that you find yourself in the midst of a shit-storm at a time like this. My family and I continue to pray for Joe and all who love him.
This is YOUR sandbox, girlfriend - ALL YOURS. Share what you are comfortable sharing, debate what you are comfortable debating, and fight when you feel up to fighting. Apologize to no one.
I, for one, happen to think that you are brilliant. The fact that you have chosen to share your vulnerability at a time like this is endearing.
Please take care of yourself by whatever means necessary, including merciless use of the “delete” key. Those who don’t understand aren’t worth worrying about.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:33 amESTShit, I’m an atheist - have been for nearly forty years - and I wasn’t the least bit annoyed. I knew where you were coming from.
Some people are just wound a little too tightly. Don’t let ‘em screw with you.
(And: you, “Rupert,” and his dad are all my thoughts, for whatever those thoughts might be worth.)
June 10th, 2008 at 8:00 amESTYes, really.
As seems to be typical with you, Para, you have completely misinterpreted what another person has said.
Did I say that YOU were like that? Did I say that ALL atheists were like that? No I did not.
If you sincerely do not believe in God then I was not talking to you.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:08 amESTRachel-
Some people were just dropped too much on their head
I hope Joe is doing better,and that he can recieve a quick recovery.
I vote the high road you take is….ignore the douchebags.
I hope you’re staying safe and so is the rest of the family.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:08 amESTHi Rachel.
Wow. What a drag. Remember your explanations for deism, agnosticism, etc? The English language needs another descriptive classifier for atheists that aggressively try to change beliefs while adding no replacing benefit for what they are trying to take away (calm, peace, hope, etc ESPECIALLY in your case over the weekend). I couldn’t come up with anything better than Dementors. Man that sounds childish, eh? I kind of agree, but I am not gonna tell JK Rowling that. How about you, you fucking assholes? If ya don’t think Dementors is appropriate, Fucking Assholes works pretty good too. What a bunch of fucking PIGS.
Here is a joke for you fuckers that maybe just maybe has a moral y’all can apply (seeing as how you are SO smart and everything):
A guy walked into a bar with his pet monkey and ordered a drink. While he was drinking, the monkey jumped all around the place. It grabbed some olives off the bar and ate them, then grabbed some sliced limes and ate them. It jumped onto the pool table, took one of the billiard balls, stuck it in his mouth and to everyone’s amazement, somehow swallowed it whole.
The bartender screamed at the guy, “Did you see what your monkey just did?”
The guy said, “No, what?”
“He just ate a billiard ball off my pool table…whole!”
“Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me,” replied the guy, “he eats everything in sight. Sorry, I’ll pay for the cue ball and stuff.” He finished his drink, paid his bar bill and paid for the stuff the monkey ate and walked out.
Two weeks later he came into the bar again along with his monkey. He ordered a drink and the monkey started running around the bar as before. While the man was finishing his drink, the monkey found a maraschino cherry on the bar. He grabbed it, stuck it up his butt, then pulled it out and ate it. Then it found a peanut. This, too, he stuck up his butt, pulled it out and ate it.
The bartender was disgusted “Did you see what your monkey did now?” he asked.
“No, what?” replied the guy.
“Well, he stuck a maraschino cherry up his butt, pulled it out and ate it…the same with a peanut!”
“Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. ” said the guy. “He still eats everything in sight but ever since he had to pass that cue ball, he measures everything first.”
That monkey learned something about thinking before he acts. His asshole was ripped. Did you learn anything? That fuckin’ monkey sure did.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:17 amESTAnd yet you seem awfully perplexed at all the hostility being thrown your way.
Maybe it has something to do with your rude and condescending attitude.
Then you must think the entire concept of FICTION is “childish” too.
I guess Shakespeare was “childish” by your definition.
Right. Because no believers ever accept death, grieve openly, or honor the memories of those who have died.
Idiot.
If you really believed that you wouldn’t be here trying to defend your previous posts.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:21 amESTRachel - a few items.
1. Don’t apologize. For this issue, it does not matter whether or not you believe in God; everyone who wrote should have enough sense to realize that lecturing you at this time is extremely rude. Many people in this world were raised with a profound lack of courtesy. Nothing you can do about this except to ignore them.
2. After reading her posts, I want to have Heather’s babies. Since I am a boy-person, this is a physiological impossibility. Don’t care, still want to have her babies. (Apologies, Heather, if you are married.)
3. It’s been raised a couple of times already, but I don’t know if it has been emphasized enough. Get a notebook and take it to the hospital. Everything you are told and any questions you have, write it down. Include date and time. If you think it is important, write it down. If it seems trivial or obvious, write it down. If he has a test, write it down. Include the results and if appropriate, ranges for good and not-so-good results, so you can remember how it went. Write down prescriptions and dosages and keep an updated list so you can check for any drug interactions. NEVER assume that the doctors or nurses have all the information. They probably will, but stuff happens. If something looks or sounds screwy, hold up the show until you understand what is going on. Joe won’t be able to do it, so someone there has to be his advocate and it can’t be someone who is intimidated by doctors and hospitals. I’m not saying to get in people’s faces and be an ass. I’m saying make sure you understand what is going on and what they are doing to him.
4. I wish Joe, you, Rupert, and his family the best. Take care.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:21 amESTI came to this thread because of the religious controversy, but now that I’m here, I suddenly don’t want to talk about that crap. I won’t say anything about my religious affiliation or lack of same, only
***best wishes for Rupert’s dad Joe since that’s what actually matters here***
May his injuries heal speedily and may they prove trifling and may you all have many more, many more happy years.
-Nathan
June 10th, 2008 at 8:25 amESTRachel,
You owe no one an apology.
Some people can’t look at a punch bowl without wanting to squat.
Just how hard is it to understand that it’s not enough to just say the “right” thing, but that you’ve got to say it at the right time too?
Sheesh.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:26 amESTAnother Atheist said,
“Writer’s Blockhead, I never claimed that anyone who is praying is advocating terminating medical treatment (though certainly there are religious people who DO take their faith to that extreme). What I said is that most of the people offering prayers here are doing nothing more than that, and patting themselves on the back that by praying they’re making a real difference.”
Another Atheist said a bit earlier,
“I suppose in this case, praying would have been just as effective, but for a guy like me, actual knowledge is just so much more comforting. You can scoff at Googling for medical advice, but Google came through for me where two doctors had not, with the limited time we had to exchange questions and answers. I scoff at your prayers, though I’m sure at least some of you have stories about how it absolutely made the difference for you. To each his own.”
Right, how on EARTH could I have made that mistake that you were claiming that the religious were praying instead of seeking medical treatment?
June 10th, 2008 at 8:27 amESTI’m sorry for the asshattery you have to deal with in a time of pain, worry and stress.
Too bad stupidity can’t be painful. I can’t imagine people so empty that they need to surf the web looking for issues to attack.
The best thing I can offer for these douchbags is to pray for them. As I can’t pray against them.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:29 amESTThis makes me sad. Right when people are almost ready and willing to finally examine their mythologies and beliefs in a rational light, we find the same old lack of basic consideration that’s kept people at each other’s throats all this time.
Might I suggest that the phrase in question, context aside, is probably the one most likely to upset your random athiest. No excuse for ass-hattery, of course - just sayin’. You couldn’t pick a more effective bait if you’re fishing for short-attention-span eph-wads trolling the ‘tubes.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:32 amESTBecause it’s the atheists who think the all-powerful creator of the universe is straining to hear their every word, and would be willing to bend the laws of biology on their behalf, right?
June 10th, 2008 at 8:33 amESTSorry if it has been posted before, but there Vox Day does have a great definition for these types of people. To paraphrase/semi-quote:
An agnostic is someone who has not seen evidence for God and thus does not know if there is or is not a God.
An atheist is an individual who asserts there is no God because he is a socially autistic asshole.
You can see the truth of these definitions in the response from the High Church Atheists you have encountered.
More Vox defintions:
High Church Atheist: An individual lacking god belief who is college-educated, self-identifies as an atheist and subscribes entirely to a materialist model of the universe, rejecting all supernatural concepts. Usually subscribes to “Enlightenment values” as well as secular humanism, considers himself rational and is often evangelical or militant about his lack of god belief.
Low Church Atheist: An individual lacking god belief who does not self-identify as an atheist, usually has not completed college and does not possess a conscious model of the universe, although assumes an essentially materialist one. May or may not reject the supernatural and is not terribly interested in abstract concepts. Doesn’t know what “Enlightenment values” are, doesn’t care, but generally subscribes to a belief in evolution in science. Not the least bit evangelical or militant about his lack of god belief.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:34 amESTAll I can say is I find it kinda odd that ome of the proclaimed athiests in this thread seem FAR more preachy than the rest posting. Trying so hard to preach to us about how us praying does absolutely no good whatsoever. I say to each his own. How is it hurting any of you in this thread when I pray and truly believe in the power of prayer? It doesn’t hurt you a single bit so why not have some respect and tact and not come in on your high horses in hopes of dashing that belief I have. I am a Christian and pray on a daily basis but I don’t go around condeming you for not believing in God. Rachel don’t let these fucktards get to you as the are obviously unfeeling unrespecting morons who would not know tact if it bit them in the ass.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:35 amESTI guess I’ve misunderstood, then. I thought Rachel created this thread,
because this IS the place. Could you post a link to the real place?
June 10th, 2008 at 8:39 amESTI come here for the doggy pictures.
“Prayer” is the process of sending energy in a specific direction. It is closely related to religion, and is a religious term, but the process of sending energy - or thoughts - to a person or action is not related to religion (or non-religion).
June 10th, 2008 at 8:41 amESTThe Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It’s drawn the finest people.
Well, pretty much everyone else has covered the “don’t apologize, because these instigating morons don’t deserve that kind of respect” angle. I just want to say as a recovering catholic -I will send my prayers to my own supreme being. He agrees with me that these fanatical atheist are not worth the effort.
Besides, they don’t even begin to comprehend how hypocritical they are. Besides, most rational and intelligent people realize that you don’t go into someone else’s house and shit all over the floor.
My best wishes remain to Joe, Rupert and the family. May whatever Supreme Being there may be give you comfort and strength during this time of trail.
Now, who was dissin’ the brussel sprout? Lemme have at him/her/it/whatever
June 10th, 2008 at 8:44 amESTI can understand how the “no athiests in a foxhole” cliche could be offensive. It’s a bit smug about one belief system and condescending toward another. Sort of like calling religious faith “acts of magical thinking” or “belief in a magical being”.
What I don’t understand is how a group who is so tuned in to the offensiveness of the former could possibly believe that puking the latter all over a discussion would not similarly offend. The only rational conclusion is they are actively seeking out usage of the former primarily TO ferret out people to offend and clash with.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:45 amESTWHOA. It’s going to take hours to read the 177 comments before mine, so I’m just going to shoot straight from the hip:
Do not let these assholes dissuade you. Ever. You have done nothing wrong and they are the ones in error. Period. To crucify you for using a famous quote is insidious and, besides, had nothing to do with the post. Whatsoever.
It seems obvious that your core group of readers care about you as a person, very much, and therefore care about the things you care about. To stop posting about your life would be a travesty, if only as a knee-jerk reaction to this big mess which would not prove anything to them or solve anything. When people lash out so vehemently to defend their position, be it religious or anti-religious dogma, Democrats or Republicans, you name it, are only highlighting their own insecurities. The phrase “methinks thou doth protest too much” is the most apropos explanation.
Don’t let these people deafen your voice or wound your spirit. It seems that you are in an emotional state and taking this much more seriously that you otherwise would. The fact that you’re even contemplating apologizing to these calloused jerks is evidence of that.
Take whatever time you need to help with Rupert’s Dad, his surgery, whatever it is, and don’t look back. But on behalf of your faithful readers, don’t let a tiny group of rabid fuckheads ruin it for the rest of us.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:48 amESTThe militant atheists are missing the point–we’re not defending faith, we’re defending Rachel. Call it bigotry from the (incredibly condescendingly-termed) “magical thinking” set all you want, but much of what’s aimed at you is launched by fellow nonbelievers. Because you’re being nasty to Rachel.
And as for God? Just because you don’t believe in Him doesn’t mean He doesn’t believe in you. Maddening, isn’t it.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:48 amESTThe problem is that everyone seems so easily offended these days… get over it. There is no law stating that “thou shalt not be offended at any time or place.”
The Universe does not revolve around any particular cause or person. And in the end - what the Hell does it matter? Let those who believe pray and those who do not - not. There is no reason for one to attack the other. Especially on someone’s personal web page that they pay to maintain.
To all the atheist that are flaming here - has Rachel over gone to your message board and crapped all over your beliefs? No - then leave it alone already.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:51 amESTSo what I gather from a half-read/half-skim of the comments is that the featured three shitbird cross-over commentors still don’t get or are ignoring the whole point of why Rachel might be a little miffed in the first place. Did any of them acknowledge that their comments were not appropriate in time and place? (I’m talking about the base argument: a post about a family member in a coma is no place to raise concerns about the fucking TITLE of the post).
Also: Do NOT appologize, goddammit. That’s the other thing that’s got me pissed (not in the British way): that they have absolutely no problem trashing YOUR house over a not obscure quote. Seems overblown, and I wish someone would just say “sorry for being a rude, overreacting asshole.”
And furthermore: I find the reaction of Rachel’s commentariate (the best evah!) to be equal and justified. I have no problem calling them assholes (and worse) for acting like assholes. We are defending Rachel from attacks with equal force. so STFU already, whiners.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:59 amESTI just got caught up; I’m so sorry for the pain you, Rupert, and his family are going through. I will offer my prayers for Joe’s complete recovery.
As for the people who choose to make your pain a stepping stone to be offended and make their beliefs (or non-beliefs) known, it shows to me who they really are, doesn’t it?
To throw a total, out-of-context fit over an old quotation during a medical, life-or-death emergency, is horribly uncaring, unfeeling, and completely rude.
And in response to a comment earlier, my oldest daughter’s mother-in-law is a religious zealot; told her that she and her husband were going to hell because they were getting a divorce (he left her and initiated the divorce, she had tried to keep the marriage together). So there are idiots on all sides.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:59 amESTI don’t think God has to strain to hear me. He’s got omnipotent hearing. Knowing He listens doesn’t make me the center of the universe, just His attention. Speaking humbly to Him as He commanded makes Him the center of my universe.
The laws of biology are really just the laws of chemistry, which as we all know is applied physics, which obeys the laws of mathematics. And in addition to God being an ex-nihilo biologist He’s an amazing mathematician.
Is anything too difficult for the Creator God? I’m just grateful that He likes me.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:13 amESTRachel,
I have been here a couple of times. Once when Morris linked to your site when Rupert’s father had the accident and now from Vox’s when used your post to show that some atheists are socialy autistic.
I have to say that I am begining to believe Vox is right. The comments even today show this. Rupert’s father has been in my prayers since I heard about the accident and will continue to be in my prayers. You and Rupert will be in my prayers as well.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:17 amESTI’m not perplexed by it, I’m used to it. If a Republican says a Democrat has a childish belief, it’s just a difference of opinion, but if an atheist says a theist has a childish belief, it’s insensitive and disrespectful and deserves nothing less than a barrage of obscenity.
Maybe, but I doubt it. I’ve been more polite than the folks who posted things like
No, though you do make a good point.
How is it accepting death to tell each other that those who have died aren’t really dead?
Huh?
Because nobody who accepts that other people have different ideas would actually defend his own? Does that even make sense to you?
June 10th, 2008 at 9:17 amESTPrecisely.
Morons like Dunstan and Another Atheist seem to think that they’ve “won” something because their rudeness towards us provoked a rude response towards them. That’s like kicking a hibernating grizzly bear and then getting all offended when he bites your face off.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:18 amESTI have not attacked Rachel, nor have I been rude toward you.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:22 amESTIf gay is the new black, then apparently atheist is the new gay. Waaaah!
I actually don’t have anything against atheists - my own “faith” is pretty lukewarm at best - but I find fundamentalist atheists (they carry Dawkins instead of a Bible or Koran, and shove it in your face at every opportunity) to be just as annoying as fundementalists of other religions, including my own. I do get annoyed when atheists tell me that religion is responsible for so many wars and deaths, bla bla bla, given that atheism was a fundamental part of the most life-taking doctrine of the 20th century.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:24 amESTOh you’re quite clearly perplexed by it. In fact you show how perplexed you are in your very next sentence where you compare an atheist calling a believer “childish” to a Republican calling a Democrat “childish” and wondering why the response is so different.
No you haven’t. You’ve been smug, condescending, and rude.
I do find it ironic that you proved their entire point, though. They predicted you would come here with a holier-than-thou attitude, and you did just that.
Congratulations.
Clearly you know next to nothing of what Christians actually believe.
I’d like you to find for me one single Christian who has ever said that dead people “aren’t really dead”.
That’s it exactly.
If you really believed in this “Oh well, to each his own” attitude, you would go away and mind your own business.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:26 amESTBoy, Another Atheist can’t seem to resist being here.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:31 amESTRachel,
When I first read these comments, I had many thoughts which I won’t post here because, frankly, the level of profanity and vitriol in those thoughts offended even me. And trust me: it’s not easy to offend me. So I slept on it, waiting for my blood pressure to diminish. Anyway, here are my thoughts:
1) I have many agnostic/atheist friends. One of them was best man at my wedding and has been my best friend for 20 years. Were he my blood relative, I couldn’t love him more. We have frank discussions, occasionally, about where it all started and, while neither of us will likely ever convert each other, we both agree that the other has valid points. Also, we’re both comfortable in our own skins.
2) It’s possible and not difficult to make a logical case for atheism/agnosticism. Heck, I’ve done it myself when I’m (a) feeling blue or (b) just playing Devil’s advocate. People who reach their conclusion following that intellectual path tend to be comfortable with a live and let live approach to whatever other people believe.
3) There are a good many what are called New Atheists these days who, in my experience with them, exhibit smug arrogance, rank condescension and preening self importance. Their goal in life, it seems, is to belittle and berate believers as stupid, uninformed, irrational or insane. I can’t even argue logically with these people as the argument goes something like this:
You can see how this might be a futile exercise. Like I said, you can make a logical case for there being no God, but most of the New Atheists simply assert and insult. There’s an old saw about Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere might be having fun (I might have messed up the quote a little). I think that there’s a similar saying for the New Atheists: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, might be saying he/she believes in God. It’s apparently their five year mission to seek out new Godidiots; to be assholes; to boldly proclaim their vast superiority to the rest of us.
Let me reiterate: this is a special new breed of atheist.
4) As a believer, I’ve developed a pretty thick skin about what people say or think about me and my beliefs. It isn’t difficult to find lots of bad jokes about Christianity. There are a lot of good ones, too, many of which I’ve told myself (yeah, I’m a bad Christian at times- sue me). But I almost never allow myself to be offended by potshots at my religion. The dullard who tossed a crucifix into a glass of urine as “art” didn’t offend me. I found his puerile attempt at being edgy to be sad and stupid. In fact, if someone’s, anyone’s comments about my religion can offend me, I need to rethink my belief system because, obviously, my beliefs aren’t that strong. Funny thing though about this breed of New Atheists: in general, they don’t return the favor, meaning they that, in general, they are extremely thin-skinned. For example, I find the following joke amusing:
Right now, there are some asshole New Atheists who are stroking out reading that joke, burning up their keyboards and fuming that someone would dare to make fun of them. My point is that some people are just looking to be offended, regardless of intent. If I may be so bold: fuck them.
Finally, you have nothing to apologize for. This is your sandbox, for which you pay the bills. No one has the right to complain about what you post here. If they don’t like it, or if it hurts their itty bitty feelings, they can either grow up or go somewhere else. And I find it to be the height of assholishness to for someone to come and shit on you and yours when you’re simply asking for support. In fact, I have one response to such jackassery:
I wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire. No wait, I take that back: I would piss on you if you were on fire. In fact, you don’t even need to be on fire.
What can I say? I’m a giver.
Take care, Rachel. Ban and/or moderate as you will. And ignore the assholes. You’ve got a lot of good, thoughtful commenters here. If some douchebags feel the need to come troll around here, I’d be glad to show them a schematic of a door hitting their ass.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:33 amESTAnother atheist Says:
I have not attacked Rachel, nor have I been rude toward you.
Yeah in the same way Al Sharpton wasn’t “rude” to the Duke LaCrosse team.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:35 amESTYou have come here spewing condescenion left and right. Never has a fanatical Christian been as high on his soapbox as you have.
Nobody gives a shit if you’re an Atheist. That’s your business. But when you attack people you can sure bet that you will see reaction.
Can you at least believe in Newton’s 3rd law? If so then gee, look in the mirror.
Oh yes you were.
You accused us of advocating prayer as a replacement for medical science.
You called us “childish”.
You said the jerkholes who posted on the “Foxhole” thread were just voicing “honest doubts” and “stating the obvious” (which tells me a lot about your attitude).
You said you “scoff” at prayer, calling it a “cultural fallback”.
And you referred to people of faith as God’s “groupies”.
So don’t give me any of this passive-aggressive bullshit about how you don’t know why everyone is upset with you.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:37 amESTRachel, (and I know you know this…) there is this crew called narcissists. They are social misfits (square peg in Moebius hole variety), and are the center of the universe in their own minds. They make solipsists look balanced. They are very good at shooting the wounded.
I hope and pray, and send good thoughts for Rupert’s Dad, and for you, too. Don’t let these guys get you down.
I am fighting the impulse to say something asinine like turning that foxhole upside-down, make it a mountain, like that, but I’m not a motivational speaker, so I can’t pull it off without sounding an idiot.
I don’t think a MS could either, really. Some things should not be said in ANY context. Wow. I pulled a point out of this!
Be well, Rachel, you and your loved ones.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:40 amESTAnother Atheist: You are entirely correct. I confused this thread with the thread where the controversy began. I accept your correction and admit I was wrong.
Craig
June 10th, 2008 at 9:44 amESTRachel,
Your blog exists for whatever reason you want it to exist. You have no obligation to print anyone’s comment, you have no obligation to tailor your writing to meet anyone else’s wants, you have no obligation to even have comments. These assholes who have been flaming in your comment section exhibit the epitome of the “It’s all about ME” atttitude. Well, on your blog, it is NOT all about them!
Thank you for your writing which enlivens and brightens my day. Oh, BTW, my prayers are enroute for Rupert’s Dad.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:47 amESTSeems to me the “argument” started when Foxhole Atheist claimed the statement “…no atheists…” was an argument by quoting some other thin skinned freak with a fuckin chip on his shoulder. Rachel never said atheists can’t be Heroes. Nor did she say there are no atheists in the United States Military. Foxhole Atheist also put words in her mouth by claiming Rachel broadbrushed his personal heroes and said specific people and their service had no value. Fucking ridiculous.
If ya can’t grasp the fuckin CONCEPT of no atheists in foxholes in the context it was said, perhaps you are not smart enough to be an atheist!
Furthermore, if ya wanna get technical and totally AVOID the context, remember what IS in foxholes… think real hard now… foxes. Foxes are in foxholes. MMMK?
June 10th, 2008 at 9:47 amESTHang in there, girl! These people just try to make everyone else miserable because they have rejected their creator. -IMHO, anyway. It’s not worth fighting with them, because they only use cheap shots and stupid, self-supporting arguments. It’s also not worth fighting them because they don’t know what a fair fight is. I hope everything turns out well with Joe and the family.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:50 amESTI went this morning, after reading all this last night-ish and lit a candle for you and yours Rachel at church.
Another Atheist: Have you tired decaffeinated coffee? It has the same full rich flavor of traditonal coffee, but with none of the nasty, jitery side effects.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:51 amESTCraig, thank you, your graciousness is appreciated.
physics geek, your joke made me laugh.
Girl Thursday, yes I can, but I enjoyed the exchange.
mightysamurai, I think you’re mistaken, but business calls.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:56 amESTI wasn’t going to say anything, but that also crossed my mind.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:57 amESTThanks, GreyICE for your thoughtful comments.
Most of the atheists I’ve known have been people you’d never know were atheists unless you asked them directly. They’re decent, law-abiding human beings who don’t believe in God and are usually quiet about it.
Unfortunately, the few “prosyletizing” atheists (as one commenter called them) tend to be kinda, um, loud and obnoxious about it. It’s an immature behavior that you almost always see in the True Believer: “if you knew what I knew, you’d agree with me; if you don’t, you’re just stupid/duped/ignorant/blind/evil/all of the above.
Just like Christians have to deal with the likes of Fred Phelps and Jeremiah Wright, atheists have to deal with Madalyn Murray O’Hair, Karl “religion is the opiate of the people” Marx, Articulett, Skeptigirl.
Also, people who pride themselves on intelligence, clear thinking and honesty should always remember the “Special Olympics Law of Internet Debate”.
Sorry for your trouble.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:04 amESTRachel,
I hope and pray that Joe is doing all right. We (my family) will keep sending good thoughts in your direction until we’re told to stand down.
Assholes come in all shapes and sizes, and I think that you should probably lock the comments sections for the next few days. When and if you have time, post short notices about how Joe is. You KNOW how all your regular readers feel about you, so you don’t need a hundred “feel better! We love you!” comments coming in. You know we’re here and hoping/praying/thinking warmly on your behalf. And you know that we’ll be ok with you taking some time off to deal with this.
Let the Great Foxhole Incident blow over. These asshole anti-theists will find something new to be offended about in a few days, and will go harass someone else. Meanwhile, you have a family that needs you and who you need as well.
An aside: You should DEFINITELY keep notes at the hospital, because even highly-trained, incredibly smart professionals make mistakes. With your training, you’re probably better equipped than most people when it comes to understanding medical jargon.
Good luck!
June 10th, 2008 at 10:08 amESTRachel, You Dear One - what crap this all is. I’m just at a loss to understand what is being thrown at you. I never would have guessed that some atheists (I’m guessing it’s a small but persistent group) were so thin-skinned, bitter, angry and selfish. I have found most I’ve encountered to be rational, thoughtful and calm people, capable of understanding the emotional times people can through when stressed. You’ve apparently tapped into a previously unknown obsessive, poisonous well of them. And by that I do not mean their beliefs, I mean their behaviour. They don’t believe in God, they believe in humans. Fine. You would think that would inspire them to exhibit the best behaviour a human can, but they have gone the other direction, and in that way are being - well - human. Whatareyagonnado?
Anyway, apologize to NO ONE. You’ve got yourself some trolls - it will run it’s course. They have made you the current poster child for this debate, but soon they will find someone else and move on.
Some Christian based movie will come along and they’ll jump all over that. Where is Jerry Falwell with some outlandish quote when you need him?
And thanks to the atheists who have said kind things here - we knew you were out there
June 10th, 2008 at 10:08 amESTMy, what an amazing hairsplitting session we have in here. How delicious.
Doesn’t mean a thing, though. Here’s an experiment: say something nominally offensive to a few different groups. Note the responses, in volume and virulence. The results not only speak for themselves, but are pretty easily guessed beforehand. But try it anyway, everyone! I dares ya.
That doesn’t mean a thing either, though. The fact is that we all knew exactly what Rachel meant, and anyone with a functional heart and mind have no problem. Those who don’t, don’t.
Say what you want, Rachel. The real people are fine with it.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:20 amESTI don’t get it these days. If some one, or a group, doesn’t agree with you why don’t they just go somewhere else? Why do they spend time, energy & emotion trying to beat their ideas into someone else’s head?
Stand your ground Rach, that’s what we like about you.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:22 amESTMost truly devoted Christians have been in that metaphorical foxhole and know the power and peace that can result when you climb out with the helping hand of what your atheist “friends” would call a fairy tale. When I was young and hadn’t been in many “foxholes” it was much easier to accept the views of my atheist “friends” I hope you can forgive these atheist commenters and accept the comfort offered by the well wishes and prayers of strangers such as myself who truly do hope and pray for the recovery of your friends father.
Num 6:24-26 The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:23 amESTActually, that’s not correct. “Irregardless” is indeed a word and is found in Websters. It may be nonstandard and not normally used in formal writing, but it is incorrect to say that “there is no such word.”
June 10th, 2008 at 10:25 amESTThere are no atheists on this board. There are no agnostics or gnostics either. There are no Christians, no Jews that come here, no Muslims. No Rastafarians, Pastafarians, or Notsafarians. No Buddhists, no jains, no Hindus, no Sikhs. No Sinto practioners, voodoo practioners, no Amish parishoners. No Daoists, Taoists, Maoists, Howoists, no Haruhi believer, no SubGenius, no Discordians, Datcordians, Erisians. Anyone who believes they are any of these things is fooling themselves.
All of you come here to worship Dog, in the avatars of Sunny and Maggie Lucas, brought unto you by the blessed Rachel Lucas, praise be her name for showing us the blessings of Dog. She has shown us the way by giving us examples of how Caesar Milan’s dog training methods work, and by telling us how the Kitchen makes good dog food. Rejoice, ye multitudes, for the sainted ridgeback has come through the sparkling coridors of the Internet to bring us the Word, and the word is “Woof!”
June 10th, 2008 at 10:27 amESTFaith is defined as believing in something that can not be proven.
It can not be proven that a supreme being does not exist.
Ergo, atheism is a faith.
<nelson_munz>Ha, ha!</nelson_munz>
“There’s nothing a good agnostic can’t do if he doesn’t know whether he really believes in anything or not.” —Monty Python
P.S. As a motorcyclist myself, I found your recounting of Joe’s accident particularly cringe-inducing. My best wishes for his recovery, as well as sympathies for Rupert, you, and the rest of the family.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:41 amESTdfwmtx, Amen and Hallelujah!
June 10th, 2008 at 10:43 amESTTully,
Thanks for your comment. I wasn’t ignoring you before, just got caught up in all the other goings on here. It’s nice to know there are people out there willing to entertain the notion that they don’t know everything. BTW, I love your LOLDOG stuff.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:45 amESTWhoop whoop Now hear this, Tired cliché alert, I repeat Tired cliché alert, All hands man your battle stations prepare full condescensions and pomposity, patronizing will be in effect.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:47 amESTUh - maybe because the phrase “magical thinking” implies that the person engaging in such thinking is a childish person who believes his or her fantasies are reality? If your beliefs were referred to in a manner that implied they were an example of childishness and engaging in escapist fantasy, wouldn’t you be upset?
As far as the Atheists in Foxholes quote - (as has been said before) people need to get a grip on themselves and not go looking for things to be offended over. It’s in the same category as any other blanket saying - meant to illustrate, not to be an absolute declaration. What is it meant to illustrate? That when people are in terror for their lives, they are more likely to try to make peace with God, no matter what their previous beliefs were, because all of a sudden, they aren’t sure, and they don’t want to take chances with the afterlife. If you’re one who can keep your (non)beliefs as is, more power to you, but don’t be surprised at some of your fellow travelers jumping ship when the shit hits the fan.
This message posted by your God-Friendly neighborhood Agnostic.
UPDATE (and DOWNDATE): dfwmtx! Coffee alert, please!
June 10th, 2008 at 10:48 amESTRachel,
I hope that Rupert’s dad gets better.
My mom had a brain injury about four years ago. She had swelling on her brain and when they went in to relieve the pressure they caused some bleeding, which gave her stroke-like symptoms. For a week or so she couldn’t talk or move very well, but all that came back, now she just has some memory issues.
Her mom, my grandma, had a series of strokes that left her unable to speak coherently, which was horrible. Although she could sing, and curse, just as fluently as ever. I read a book about two years after she died that talked about how singing is in a different part of the brain that speech, and how this doctor would teach his patients to sing songs about everyday things so that they could still communicate with their families. Wish we’d known about it about 10 years sooner. It was called “In Defense of the Cavewoman” and is a series of short articles/stories by a neurologist. You might pick up a copy and give it a read, it did help us a bit with mom.
It also really, really, really helped my mom, because we’d talked about how we could’ve gotten her mom to sing stuff if we’d only known, and so she knew, and I reminded her of it a lot for that first week or two when she was most affected, that she was not going to end up like her mom and there would be some form of communication we could work out. The peace of mind that gave her was incredible. She really really did not want to go through that living hell her mom did. Unable to read or talk, which are two of her favorite things.
Oh, and Rachel, don’t apologize.
If they were offended, the polite thing to do on their end is to not mention it.
Manners, people. It’s not just what keeps us from using the “wrong” silverware.
You don’t barge into someone else’s house, uninvited, when they are throwing a party and then get all upset that the painting on the wall in the den is one you find offensive. That’s about the level of y’all’s bitchiness here.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:54 amESTI know what the illustration is, and I find it very insulting. It’s just another way of saying “god exists, and with enough fear in you, you’ll know it.” Your explanation of the cliche drives the insult even harder.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:12 amESTApologize for nothing, as you did nothing wrong. Certain people, atheists chief among them, take offense of everything that is in opposition to their own beliefs or lack thereof.
I totally understood your post, and probably would have slotted you more in the “agnostic” column previously anyway. That doesn’t mean you don’t believe; it means you question everything.
I’ll continue to honor your heart-felt request for prayers for Rupert’s family. Big hugs to you.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:19 amESTI’m not sure why society is so rude. You made a statement that offended some. Should it have? No. We are becoming so thin skinned that anyone who disagrees is now considered ‘offensive’. pffft. get a life
What is more alarming than our thin-skinnedness is the belief that we should be rude enough to enter another’s space to not only tell them we are offended, but to be offensive in return about it.
When people say things I disagree with, especially online, I simply shake my head and think ‘moron’. I don’t feel obliged to go tell them in no uncertian terms what I feel. That’s just rude. People are entitled to an opinion. Don’t like it, keep your yap shut and don’t patronize the places they do. It’s simple.
Sadly, society today has no manner any more. Rudeness is a state of being.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:23 amESTAnother Atheist:
That. Is. Enough.
You DO NOT continue defending your opinions, WHATEVER they are, and WHATEVER might have been said, when someone has made it clear that they are hurting badly, and that your opinions have been heard.
That is why people are calling you rude. You have violated a very basic social boundary. Social boundaries are what makes the world go round, and prevent us from killing one another.
So. Shut. Up.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:25 amESTOK, this kind of shit really pisses me off. These festering douchebags are no better than the fundamentalist fruitcakes on the other side of the pew.
Rachel, I hope you don’t mind, but I had to write about it. Hopefully, it doesn’t bring more idiots to your door. I just couldn’t hold back. I hate zealotry, no matter where it comes from.
Oh, and in my haste and anger, I also failed to mention that I, of course, hope Joe has a speedy and complete recovery. Hang in there.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:33 amESTSad to hear about the illness in your family. Best wishes from all of us at Instapunk.
Also. Outraged about the atheist abuse. I talked about it in today’s post.
Please don’t quit blogging spontaneously, though. That’s your gift.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:44 amESTRachel,
Please don’t apologize to the people who, beginning with Foxhole Atheist, barged in on your thread for selfish purposes.
And feel free to ignore the people who have come since to defend his alleged ’cause’ — they need to save it for another day!
The choice to inject a deliberately inflammatory comment* was, at best, stupid and insensitive. But then, when challenged, to run home and solicit a barrage of ugliness from similarly stupid, insensitive people? That was just so foul and disgusting — words fail me!
From where I sit, the controversy isn’t about atheism at all, really: more than one regular member of this commentariat is an atheist; atheism has been the subject of many lively debates here; and to my knowledge, none of the debaters has been banned.
At issue, is rudeness, selfishness, and cruel ugliness vs common courtesy and consideration for a family in a crisis.
Plain. And. Simple.
*
Don’t try to tell me that wasn’t supposed to be a challenge.
So, was the response predictable? Was it useful? Did it serve the cause of oppressed atheists everywhere to start that fight, or did it just serve ego?
[Sheesh! I go off on a marathon parenting expedition and come back to this thread -- oy! I didn't get in until 3AM (and still had to get up at 6:30!), so I don't have physics geek's advantage of having "slept on it." All the really smart people have said about all that could be said, but I've been so pissed about the violation of what should have been a source of comfort and support, I just couldn't sit this one out. It sickens me that Rachel should have been burdened, and her blogging could be fettered by this crap!]
June 10th, 2008 at 11:56 amESTKen Anderson - and others:
We understand that you are insulted - but no one forced you to visit this website with a gun to your head. And I doubt the best way to find closure on it is to go to someone else’s website and insult them and their readership.
You are offended by an expression - get over it already. There are far more worrisome things in the world to care about. Probably a lot more contructive ways to improve it too…
June 10th, 2008 at 12:03 pmESTJust wondering what happened to the new banner. Not that I’m complaining about the old one!
June 10th, 2008 at 12:03 pmESTWow, I wonder if it’s the same Ken Anderson who already infested my blog.
Douche.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:10 pmESTYou do not have the right to NOT BE OFFENDED. Go look for it, I’ll wait. Don’t like what you are reading, fuck off, it’s a big internet. Militant Atheists are no different than Militant Christians, Muslims etc. You are a bunch of Cyber bullies with way to much free time on your hands.
Bottom line is NO ONE KNOWS for sure if a god exists, period end of story. I don’t care what you have “faith” in, you have NO PROOF.
Rachel, ignore these asshats and enjoy the hit counter rolling, since you are a capitalist and pay for your little world of cyber space and these atheist assholes are most likely socialist anarchists as well since they think the whole internet is free and should not offend their delicate sensibilities all the while supporting your capitalism.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:11 pmESTHello, atheists! Um, dudes, that “no atheists in foxholes” thing…it’ just an expression, ya know? Sort of a metaphor…jeez, simmer down.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:24 pmESTI agree with Ethne, but would also like to add that it would be one thing if Rachel was actually discussing the issue of whether or not atheists exist in a foxhole.
As it is, she simply used a well known phrase as the title of a post about a member of her boyfriend’s family. You disagree with the statement? Fine.
But don’t crash this post to try to make a point. You may very well be right, but come off as insensitive pricks for using this particular post to make your point.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:27 pmESTThat’s what I’m screaming, right there. Everyone has the right to be offended, and everyone has the right to be offensive. I don’t particularly LIKE offending people, but it will happen. Some people just have thin skin. I walk on eggshells for no man.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:27 pmESTAll i see here is a power struggle for who can make the best comeback.
In a debate with insults and a bad aura, both sides are wrong.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:29 pmESTNow for something completely different -
June 10th, 2008 at 12:38 pmESTThat’s a lot of rubber: This may be why there is such a rise in the price of oil
snicker
Yeah, I am immature, I own it!
Rachel,
My thoughts and prayers are with you, for whatever they are worth. Ignore the insulting asshats, of whatever variety, and cherish your true friends.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:38 pmESTThis is a time to concentrate on healing, not winning arguments. You have enough on your mind without any distractions from comments coming from strangers. Family is more important that what I or anyone else thinks or says. Be with them as much as you can, sometimes just being with other members of the family at a time like this helps.
Just a nit. No Christian has ever converted anyone or ever will. That miracle is performed by God and His Holy Spirit. He just uses us to help out occasionally.
And I know you already addressed this, but just let me have a little fun. There are no atheists in foxholes. There are no agnostics in foxholes. There are no theists in foxholes. There are no foxholes. Not anymore.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:44 pmESTAnyone who claims to have been offended by the original foxhole heading is either lying that they didn’t understand where you were coming from or too stupid to bother with. This was just an opportunity for some asshole to feign outrage and impose their self-righteous beliefs where they don’t belong. This brand of intellectual dishonesty really chaps my hide.
All the best to you and your loved ones.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:48 pmESTWHATEVAH!! I DO WHAT AH WAHNT!!
It’s snowing where I live (we call it Junuary), so I couldn’t help adding this quip from a poorly-drawn (oops, I meant crudely-animated), snow-coated cartoon.
Or at least a rise in something … now here’s a religious position (style, whatever) I can definitely get behind …
June 10th, 2008 at 12:52 pmESTAs with others on this site, I find athiests incredibly obnoxious and obstructive, much more so than Christians. At the same time and while it seems a very unfortunate lack to me, I don’t have a spiritual bone in my body. Like Rachel, hedging one’s bets comes into play from time to time. I decided after a couple of theology classes that a better description of where I stand is probably the term, agnostic as opposed to athiest. This means simply that there’s not enough information available to decide either way. In the meantime, reading the Scripture is genuinely a profound and moving experience. There are very few 2,000 year old artifacts still in existence much less in use in the world today. No matter one’s beliefs or lack of belief, there’s a world of wisdom in that book which continues to permeate our society today. We are the better for it.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:55 pmEST“That’s like kicking a hibernating grizzly bear and then getting all offended when he bites your face off.”
Metal….
I’m not the praying type, but I’ll ask the old man upstairs for a quick recovery for Rupert’s dad. Even though he’s probably going to hound me about it when I’m standing outside those pearly gates like a best friend who loaned you five bucks.
No apology to preachy Atheists! They don’t deserve one…
June 10th, 2008 at 12:57 pmESTWhat do you mean poorly drawn? You mean most people’s eyes don’t turn into X’s when they get mad?
Snow in June - I dont quite know whether that statement argues for or against the existence of God.
Gotta love levity in the form of Cartman though. Well said.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:59 pmESTOh, she apologized alright.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:03 pmESTClearly, I do not see the difference between a militant atheist and a militant pacifist.
When a religious belief (or the possibility of a religious belief) comforts someone, I find it passing strange that a dedicated atheist feels compelled to drive a stake through his heart.
I have never met a happy or likable atheist. That is because there is usually no cause for me to know that piece of personal knowledge. However, I find that I am fairly quickly informed of a person’s atheist status, because he wears it as some sort of badge of defiance. (Too much superiority or a case of inferiority?)
So what, exactly, is the politically correct reaction to an atheist? Much of Western culture, art, law, ethics, morality, philosophy and tradition arise from informed religious belief. In the pantheon of score keeping, it would be “Believers”= mega-millions to “Atheists”= near zero. That is not to say that individual atheists do not make occasional contributions. But when you flip the cards in the cultural card catalogue, the believers are everywhere and their contributions are interlocked with those who came before them. Atheist contributions tend to be bitter and laden with themes of angst.
In the case of Jesus, what other single man (and from the sticks, at that) made such a profound impact on the history of mankind? If the atheist believes in his full bloom of peacock pride that he can eliminate the continuing works of believers and not end up with the Lord of the Flies, I would be interested in studying the philosophy that so informs him.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:17 pmESTMah. Gawd.
Rachel, your “insult” has inspired the almighty whatever to create a blog — “Wisdom from the ultimate source”.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:17 pmESTFear my wrath, oh supporters of she who spewed the hateful platitude, the ultimate insult, the reviled cliche — for I have created … “BLOG!”
Your work here is done, great one!
Bwahahahaahaha … you’re a blogmother … that’s PRICELESS!
[think I just peed a little -- are there adult diapers on the bus?]
It really fucking sucks that people are so quick to judge and bash that you have been put in this position. It genuinely makes me sad that because of these ass hats, you have to stifle your thoughts to prevent these fucktards from infiltrating your site and life by posting their hateful comments. Pray if/when you want to and question all the other times. Who gives a rat’s ass? I for one think it’s healthy to question things on every level, including the existence of any deity. It’s your business, and not anyone’s place to judge. Those of you posting hateful messages here are total hypocrites.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:27 pmESTHi Rachel.
I saw the addition to your endorsements.
“a disgusting little shit” -some atheist
Fucking hilarious! Keep up the great work!
June 10th, 2008 at 1:28 pmESTAnother Atheist: I have no training in psychiatry…but I am pretty sure I am a good example of projection. I accused you of social autism when I was providing a clear picture of a socially autistic person myself. I apologize for the false accusation.
We certainly disagree on some major points (full disclosure, I am a Christian, obviously with LESS than perfect control my brain before I start typing), but I think you and I could respectfully disagree about most anything.
Craig
June 10th, 2008 at 1:30 pmESTSorry to hear about him, I hope he recovers.
The best revenge is to not be like them.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:31 pmESTAgnostics are cool.
Militant Atheists are asshated asstastic assbags.
So let it be written.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:36 pmESTSumie,
No, both sides might be doin’ it wrong, but one side is definitely right — and a lot funnier!
But Heather, how can you talk about snow when it’s 97 degrees in the shade here — so mean! It’s so brutal out, I’m about to go give out-of-town-homeschool-girl’s horse a shower before the wretched thing keels over, leaving me to explain the sudden appearance of new earthworks to the returning child!
June 10th, 2008 at 1:37 pmESTOh, and speaking of ‘dead horses’ — lol!
I KID YOU NOT!! We have 2+ inches of snow — and it’s still snowing!
This weather is so weird that I am going over each individual comment looking for someone who might have wished my personal hell would freeze over and subsequently annointing it with a dead chicken/lucky charm/voodoo doll/atheist logic-bomb!
I am in the Pacific Northwest, by the way. Oh, and dead horses are bahhhd, not goood, so you may wanna’ follow through on that. Not that I am jealous or anything ; )
EDIT:
June 10th, 2008 at 1:43 pmESTThe snow stopped, and it is now raining “…and big old fat rain”. Thanks for lifting the hex, Michelle!
Gah! - OK - have to pipe in here…
Athiest=possesses no belief in the supernatural. This is not the same as saying “there is (are) no god(s.)” This is a rational defensible position. I would be 100% willing to revise my position if evidence were to be revealed.
Anti-theist=”There is (are) no god(s.)” This is a statement of faith/belief/opinion. Can’t be proved, disproved, etc. I would say a tool that pops off without considering the context of the discussion more likely fits in this category.
Agnostic=”I don’t know.” Literally, I don’t know what “agnostic” is supposed to mean, other than “I’d be willing to believe the mythology and I’m open to being convinced.” I guess.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:49 pmESTThis thing’s getting a bit long. Maybe the thread should be locked? When is enough ENOUGH?
June 10th, 2008 at 1:49 pmESTHeather:
It was I who wished that your personal hell should freeze over. (LOL)
-With love and wishes of sunshine again from the gloriously cold and rainy metropolis of Wilsonville
June 10th, 2008 at 1:50 pmESTI think she’s over it. See the endorsements.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:51 pmESTOh, I hope so!
Did you know y’all were
?
I feel so left out! And this morning I was still on a caffeine jag from the road trip. So there I was, running around, doing chores, and thinking of all the verbal lynching I was going to do, then got to the keyboard only to have my brain do a ‘Big Brown’ as the caffeine finally wore off — no fair!
June 10th, 2008 at 1:52 pmESTHeather,
June 10th, 2008 at 1:53 pmESTWhere approximately are you. I am on the east side of WA out in the desert and it is cold and pouring rain. I figure if it is raining this much here there is going to be a foot of the white stuff not too far up the mountain
More things overheard on the short bus:
“Nuh uh! YOU’RE stupid!”
“Miss Wachel! Wonnie jus fwowd up on the seat!”
“Are we there yet?”
“I like pudding.”
::Sigh:: Looks like it’s a long trip to Enlightenment.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:53 pmESTMichelle,
I accept that you made a wish that I might construe as offensive. Please understand that what you have wished for might offend me and others who live in my personal hell. Try to remember that in the future, and I will now quietly step back and take my wounded pride with me.
KTHXBAI.
Thank you, Michelle, for this opportunity to provide an example. No offense intended or taken!
I can’t stop laughing … everyone already knows I am an idiot, and now they think I’m loony, too …
Wilsonville? As in the one south of me? I’ve actually been there (a million years ago)
June 10th, 2008 at 1:59 pmEST“Athiest=possesses no belief in the supernatural.”
The “supernatural” makes no sense to a theist. If God is God, then His actions are as natural as any other person exercising control over his environment.
But let’s better define “supernatural” to become no belief in anything but science, and/or materialist things. A reasonable position for most atheists, no?
This means…atheists have no belief in non-material things such as:
Reason
Mathematics
Logic
Causality
In fact, the scientific method itself is unprovable using the scientific method.
Yet atheists claim to use reason all the time. They use math. They use logic. They use the scientific method. They assume cause and effect. And these assumptions are based on belief, trust, FAITH.
Hence, atheists do believe in the non-material, and hence atheists believe in the “supernatural.”
Hence, there are no atheists, even in foxholes. I don’t believe in any of you. Sorry.
“It is idle to talk always of the alternative of reason and faith. Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all.” GK Chesterton
June 10th, 2008 at 2:08 pmESTScott- I am agnostic and can tell you what it means to me (which, of course, does not mean every agnostic feels the same).
I don’t believe there is a god because it goes against human reason. However, using this same reason, I realize that it is impossible for me to know this with certainty. Therefore, the possibility must logically still exist. I am NOT, however, open to any kind of “convincing” if the result of the arguments/data/evidence means I will be able to reach a conclusion that has me believing one way or another. I accept the existence of “evidence” on each side of the argument, but since I cannot ever KNOW, I choose not to ever BELIEVE.
I consider atheism and religion to be two sides of the same “belief” coin (since “knowing” is impossible). That said, I have no qualms with those who do believe one way or another. Though I cannot bring myself to it, I can see the comfort people find in belief and would never want to take that from them.
I think that’s the nub of Rachel’s original concern. I mean, imagine if she’d written “irregardless of your beliefs” and people took issue with the word “irregardless” and missed her original intention completely.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:10 pmESTI believe that he is now a ficus or maybe an elm.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:20 pmESTJust occured to me - wonder if this post/thread broke the Website Swear Meter?
Dog pics, please, I feel like we bus riders just finished singing the entire ‘99 Atheist A-holes on the wall’ song and it’s time for a change!
June 10th, 2008 at 2:24 pmESTWords have meaning. Online dictionaries are helpful. Here are the meanings. No moving of the goal posts or obfuscating.
a·the·ist (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.
1.
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
Still I like Vox’s:
An agnostic is someone who has not seen evidence for God and thus does not know if there is or is not a God.
An atheist is an individual who asserts there is no God because he is a socially autistic asshole.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:25 pmESTThat’s awesome!
June 10th, 2008 at 2:31 pmESTOr maybe …
Cactus? Cockroach? Capuchin?
How many times have I dropped the F-bomb? And I definitely haven’t used the C-word in my posts here… note I said, “here.” he he
June 10th, 2008 at 2:32 pmEST@a-atheism
Absence of belief in the supernatural rules out abstraction? I can’t see where you make the leap there.
I have an idea, with my brain, operating as a biological function of my body.
I guess first we have to agree whether existence exists outside our perceptions. If it does, than I don’t need faith to trust reason. I would need faith to trust everything else, though.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:35 pmESTI know exactly how these atheists feel. I am a person who makes my living soliciting alms. I also happen to be VERY hard to please. I am particular and very fastidious, especially when it comes to making a selection.
So when people idly throw around the phrase “beggars can’t be choosers” I say HOW DARE YOU! Don’t you know there are MANY choosy beggars. These people’s ignorance is astounding.
I often google those offensive words, so that I can swiftly descend on those idiots and contradict their absurd use of such a startling inacurate phrase.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:10 pmESTI have an idea, with my brain, operating as a biological function of my body.
This “idea” you speak of…you are assuming it exists, but can you show me material proof its existance? Can this “idea” be measured? What is its atomic structure?? Am I to take it on FAITH that this “idea” you are talking about is a real thing? Further, you seem to be assuming the existance of “logic” in your argument that thought=chemicals. How is this possible, since your “thinking” is simply a series of chemical reactions, while “logic” implies an intelligible, universal order transcending your specific brain functions? Lastly, you seem to imply that YOU have an idea, which implies a free will, which is unprovable to science, since “wills” are immaterial.
By the assumptions of a materialist, your post was nonsense. Yet you still wrote it. You must not be a materialist!!!
June 10th, 2008 at 3:17 pmESTUmm…your reply?
You want a character count?
That’s up to you, I guess.
Didn’t say I was a “materialist.” Why would I piss in the wind, unless I thought there was something to be gained; some understanding, some kind of common ground where it’s not just shouting and ignoring?
I agree with Rachel, it is like arguing with Fred Phelps.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:30 pmESTYou can think whatever you please. It won’t change your rude and condescending words into respectful and humble ones.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:40 pmESTOh my…
I always end up missing the really good stuff for some reason. By the same token, it looks like I missed some pretty crappy stuff as well.
Lots of great stuff here, but IMO Heather, Mightysamurai, and felicity; you guys rock… No seriously… Rock…
Big positive warm fuzzy juju to you and yours, Rachel. And just in case that’s a crock, I’m off ta hit the tip jar too…
June 10th, 2008 at 3:50 pmESTI found this comment over at Nicki’s, and I couldn’t resist sharing the sentiment, as I could only respond in this way:
Nicki, this is screaming to be said … they asked for it by pissing on/off the driver of the short bus to enlightenment … so here it is.
[Bus driver Rachel over the loudspeaker]
THAT’S IT! BACK OF THE BUS, ASSHATS!
C’mon, now, you set YOURSELVES up for that one …
June 10th, 2008 at 3:51 pmESTRachel: There are no atheists in foxholes…it’s true.
Atheist: Yes there are, I find that comment offensive. Condolences to your friends.
Rachel + Groupies: You atheists are acting like a bunch of assholes frothing at the mouth!!! You should be rounded up, jailed and deported to an atheist island surrounded by sharks!! DIE ATHEISTS DIE! ARRRGHHHH!!! I HATE YOU ALL!!!! QUIT ACTING SO VIOLENT!!! WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS ANGRY?!?!?!?! ARRGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
June 10th, 2008 at 3:52 pmESTfirst they outlawed prayer in school, and then they tried to get God off the money, we have idiots trying to get crosses taken off 150 year old city crests … and now they insist we put athiests in foxholes.
OK … I’m game … let’s put a militant athiest (or two) in every foxhole. Maybe that’ll give them something to think about besides their godawful egos.
I’ll join the choir, Rachel, although I’ll have to apologize in advance for my voice. Your blog. Your rules. No sane reason to allow these cretins to harsh your mellow (or ours). Treat their comments as spam, since they’re shilling a product few want … on your dime.
Best wishes, and prayers to you and your intended, and please pass wishes for a speedy and complete recovery to Joe from a fellow biker.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:52 pmESTUmm…your reply?
Ummm, no. My reply was to your assertion.
You want a character count?
There were no “ideas” before typewriters and microprocessors? What an odd theory…
That’s up to you, I guess.
Truly. And it is very thin.
Why would I piss in the wind, unless I thought there was something to be gained; some understanding, some kind of common ground where it’s not just shouting and ignoring?
Piss in the wind indeed, if you REALLY believe your thinking is operating as a biological function of my body.
Didn’t say I was a “materialist.”
I know. Hence why I said: “You must not be a materialist!!”
June 10th, 2008 at 3:55 pmESTActually it says “You will pray for salvation if the going gets tough enough” which is similar but still very distinct. And that statement is generally true, IMO. It’s easy to say you don’t believe in a “God” if you’ve never been in a situation where the only thing you can do is pray.
And if you’re really so insulted, there’s a pretty little red button in the upper corner of your web browser. If you click it, all the bad words will go away.
What’s funny about this post is Sumie probably doesn’t even realize that s/he is doing the exact same thing.
If “both sides are wrong”, then logically the first person to point this out must be “right”.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:00 pmESTIn fact you did, although I don’t think you realized it (or meant to).
You said:
“Supernatural” is defined as anything “attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature”.
If you say you don’t believe in “the supernatural” then you are saying you don’t believe anything exists other than the material (that which can be weighed, measured, and scientifically proven to exist).
(Also, if the rational position is not to believe in anything “supernatural”, then aren’t you implicitly claiming that absolutely everything can be explained by science? That there is no phenomenon that cannot be explained by science? That seems like an inherently irrational, not to mention hubristic, way of thinking. But I digress…)
Let me give you an example of what I mean.
Can you prove to me, scientifically, that “art” exists?
June 10th, 2008 at 4:21 pmESTI’ve never found commenters better at turning what people say against them, in the way that they did not mean them than here in this very blog.
I don’t put myself on a pedistal, I was simply implying this debate is only fueling the flames of hate. Nothing based off of hate can/should be considered ‘right’. My post had absolutely nothing to do with me being ‘right’. Just mentioning what i notice.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:32 pmESTActually it was more like this:
Yeah, that sounds about right.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:35 pmESTYou may not have meant to do it, but that is what you were doing.
You were placing yourself “above” the rest of us by claiming that anyone who engages in this debate is equally “wrong”, and the only “right” thing to do is to remove oneself from it (like you).
June 10th, 2008 at 4:40 pmESTIt’s simply amazing that people even with the most neutral stance can be criticised and misunderstood so quickly.
It’s that exact criticism that makes people board up and become emotional hermits. I just hope that people havent pushed Rachel to this point. This is the only blog i have actually enjoyed reading daily, and would be very sad to see this blog die out.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:41 pmESTReally? I’ve outlined how you’re wrong, littlesamurai.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:46 pmESTmightysamurai: I haven’t seen that many “straw men” since Summerstock try outs for the Wizard of Oz! Heh.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:53 pmESTOkay, admittedly I came off rather harsh, and I apologize for that.
However, your original statement was not wholly innocent. You said, “All i see here is a power struggle for who can make the best comeback.”
Well if that’s ALL you see then you aren’t reading to understand, but to refute. Which would, ironically, make your statement one of those “comebacks” you abhor so much.
Whether you realize it or not, whether you meant to or not, you ARE implicitly placing yourself on a pedestal above the rest of us.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:59 pmESTYes, really. The fact that you don’t even seem to understand why Foxhole Atheist, Skeptigirl, and Articulett’s comments were offensive and inappropriate says a lot about you.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:01 pmESTWe try.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:01 pmESTAbove who? you? Why would i want to work so hard to get absolutely nowhere. I am above no one. No one is above me. That’s pretty much the way it works.
But by trying to ‘bring me down’, aren’t you trying to climb the ladder?
Edit: An non-existant ladder, mind you.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:04 pmESTLook at this circle we have created lol.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:05 pmESTI suppose I am.
But then, I’m not the one claiming that “climbing the ladder” is wrong.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:14 pmESTI think the real lesson here is don’t ever insult Rachel.
People seem to think she’s incapable of defending herself, so we must all fall all over ourselves either bashing ( a severly assymetrical bashing, BTW) the offender, or assuring Rachel that she’s right and don’t worry because we’ll stick up for her, and she has the right to do anything she wants on her own blog and, and ,and..
C’mon folks, Rachel is more than capable of taking care of herself, and in the future, if someone says something stupid, we should respond to thier point, rather than focusing on the fact that the stupid comment was focused on Rachel.
Rachel doesn’t need defending, and by defending her so vehemently, we make her look weak to the offenders.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:41 pmESTPlease STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.
From the LGF faq:
A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate. Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters
* Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts
The wikipedia link about trolls:
The Internet Troll
Rachel, this is about the only blog where I read the comments. Like so many of your other readers, I have come to expect that the commentors are generally respectful and genuinely interested in debate. This is VERY rare, as we are unfortunately seeing.
You have something rare and somewhat fragile here. I hope you continue to find it rewarding.
You have my sincere best wishes for Joe’s complete and speedy recovery.
z
June 10th, 2008 at 8:12 pmESTRachel, I hope Joe gets better soon.
To evvybuns and the rest of the usual suspects, all I can say is ‘amen’…
as for the atheists that just *have* to shit in other peoples blogs, I think Rachel should
SIITPAPP. Then sic the dogs on them.
(if anyone had a weird mental pic…sorry about that)
June 10th, 2008 at 8:57 pmESTI think for the most part everyone knows I am Rachel’s cousin. I could go into an hour long diatribe about how awesome Rachel is but I think everyone else has adequately established that fact in other comments. I do, however, want to point out I am grossly offended by the personal attacks on her character, persona and kindness. Those individuals, whatever label you give yourselves, have perpetrated the exact offense you so astutely and self-righteously state Rachel has committed. Therefore, I demand an apology to her for your disrespect; otherwise one could only come to the logical conclusion you are hypocrites. Nothing would please me more for you to prove me wrong. My patience is wearing thin. I would have effectively kicked your ass for far lesser offenses than what you have put her through the last couple of days. You obviously don’t like the words she used to characterize her feelings and have stated so but you have come to the erroneous conclusion anyone here gives a shit. Some may, I guess, but I for one do not. What I do give a shit about is my cousin and you are obviously causing her grief. Be a victim if you so choose, but for all the logic you seemingly uphold, your behavior is absolutely illogical and irrational.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:41 pmESTI kinda like the ‘You leave a comment. Do it now.’ bit. It’s cute, in an ironic sort of way. And I almost didn’t leave a comment until I noticed that, I must be easily influenced.
I take some comfort in the idea that all these posts are generating a tiny bit of extra revenue for Rachel. I hope they have some amusement or edification value too, but if not, at least there’s a high post count!
This IS the thread for arguing, and no one’s right to say what they want is curtailed by someone objecting to it. Someone taking offense and saying so doesn’t translate into ‘I claim the right to never be offended.’ It’s a shame something like this came up in a blog about personal loss, but it IS a public blog and Rachel can delete posts or close comments or whatever she wants, based on her own judgement and sense of fairness. I sincerely believe that she meant no offense originally and that any offense she DID mean is understandable under the circumstances. I also see how Foxhole Atheist’s comment could have been phrased with more tact, although bear in mind that he or she might also be dealing with something heavy…like an atheist friend or relative who was injured or killed while serving. You never know.
And thanks to whoever posted the definition of ‘vitriol’, it wasn’t what I thought it was…from context I had always assumed it was the direct sort of hate and spite, rather than being more about tone and nuance.
June 11th, 2008 at 12:32 amESTKrisL, I was just about to go off to bed (overdue), but I think your comment needs a response.
Your cousin (and my sympathy for YOUR situation in all this, I hope Joe has the best recovery possible) chose for her own reasons to create a space for this discussion to be entertained. I don’t think it is malicious or inappropriate to take her up on her offer, provided we are civil about it. It’s not my place to apologize for those who haven’t been, but I DO wish everyone had been able to do a better job of taking the high road. Certainly personal attack and insults against Rachel are regrettable, especially in a family crisis. However the (unintentional) offense we’re saying your cousin committed is not insulting US. I’m not personally offended by the foxhole comment. I’m not personally offended by such cliches as ‘black people like watermelon’ or ‘Jews are hard bargainers’ or ‘gays want to seduce your children into their lifestyle’ either. But I don’t let them pass. Phrases like that were once considered innocuous or simply pithy observations of the truth. You could say them in front of crowds or to strangers or to reporters without much fear of contradiction. I’m sure often the people who said them didn’t mean anything by them. Is it really an insult to blacks to say they like watermelon, or is the real insult the unstated implication that you can pigeonhole black people as a group, that they aren’t individuals the way white people are? We have the freedom of speech in the USA to say these things. But we can no longer expect to be able to say them without being challenged. This change came about because people finally had enough and started speaking out against perpetuating these stereotypes. When someone describes me as an ‘angry atheist’ I hear ‘uppity atheist’. When someone tells me to ‘just shut up’ I hear ‘don’t forget there are more of us than there are of you’. Despised minorities stay despised until enough of them speak up for themselves that people have to recognize that they no longer get a free pass to say those things anymore.
That said, would I have called Rachel on this under the circumstances if I knew her, or even if I was just physically present. No. I would have let it pass. And I would have let it pass here if she hadn’t seen fit to allow all of this to be aired out. Even though I believe it’s a slight against every atheist who has given their life in service to their country, I know most people don’t think it through that far and allowances can be made for tragedy. It would take a bhodisatva to have offered a sincere apology under this kind of duress, so I don’t ask for one or criticize her for not delivering one. I hope this clarifies what the offense actually was, though.
Rachel, my thanks for providing a forum to bring this issue under scrutiny. It’s a pet issue of mine. You certainly must be quite an individual to have earned such fervant defenders.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:22 amESTThat is neither the definition of “vitriolic” nor the definition of “rhetoric”.
Dean, I suspect that your original thoughts on the meaning of “vitriol” were correct. It is not nuanced.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:53 amESTDean
You are absolutely correct in our right of free speech but people do not have the right to free speech when they are commenting in a private blog. They, by all means, can establish their own blog and exercise their right to free speech, that my son & Rachel’s boyfriend protect with their lives I might add. Rachel did not create the “Atheist in a foxhole” post for the purpose of debating this particular issue. She created her blog to exercise her right to free speech and allow others to contribute to the topic and intent of her posts. There is a reason for rules & etiquette when posting comments because this is, in essence, her house. Those individuals or anyone else do not have the right to say or behave anyway they want on Rachel’s blog. Rachel has stated many times it is a privilege to comment not a right and it in no way infringes on anyone’s right to freedom of speech.
No not regrettable, but entirely inappropriate and unacceptable behavior in any circumstance as well as intentionally hurtful and derogatory. I’m speaking of comments made directly to her i.e. “a disgusting little shit” -some atheist
Stating “But I don’t let them pass” establishes that persons values, belief system or opinion as the standard to be upheld. Which on a private blog, is an erroneous thought process due to the fact the blog host is the individual who sets the standard. The blog host neither needs nor requests the permission of others to approve their content as politically correct or to establish the lack of intentional/unintentional offenses. That specific statement is the integral ingredient as to why this issue has become so inflamed. Those who have a need to defend a belief typically also have a need for the blog host and commenter’s to change their mind thus establishing the perceived offense or belief as fact. It’s not acceptable in their mind for people to believe differently and move on because they are the appropriate standard for all humanity. They have appointed themselves the salvation of our perceived ignorance. That is domination not freedom. Perceptions of offense require one to look at themselves as a victim and victimization empowers no one.
Dean this statement also implies you and your peers are the ones to dole out allowances and if no allowance is made then ensues bullying and the annihilation of an individuals right to believe or say anything that is in discourse to your opinion or belief. In my mind that is an extremely elitist attitude.
The exact freedom you perceive as being infringed upon is the perceived freedom you are using to convince Rachel she has unintenionally offended others. Offense is a perception one personally owns. In other words they also have the choice not to own the statement as their truth, just like you stated you don’t find it personally offensive. No one is forcing anybody to feel offended they make that choice for themselves but it doesn’t always equate to fact.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:21 amESTI quoted the source of my definition, and have done nothing inappropriate to you beyond poking holes in your argument.
Now you’re just being a baby (I can’t imagine that you, as an aethist, are simply not using your logic so I must assume this), so I am going to treat you like one.
Go find your mommy. She probably doesn’t realize you are out of your playpen. I’m sure she’d happily read what’s found at these links in a language you can actually understand.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rhetoric
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vitriolic
June 11th, 2008 at 10:50 amESTYou have misunderstood your source at thefreedictionary.
The “definitions” you posted are not definitions, but examples of how synonyms listed in the thesaurus might be used in a sentence.
“Acerbic” is a synonym for “vitriolic.” Other synonyms are “blistering,” “caustic,” “bitter,” and “virulent.”
“An acerbic tone piercing otherwise flowery prose” is an example of how “acerbic” might be used in a sentence. It is not a definition of “vitriolic.” Posting it as a definition is misleading. I have corrected your error. You’re welcome.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:59 amESTYes, but did you also note:
Sounds like plenty of room for “nuance” to me. Sorry you’re offended that I used some.
I’m pretty good at helping people find their mommies, if you need any more help.
G’wan. Keep up the rhetoric. We all enjoy it soo much.
“If there are any (more) questions, direct them to that brick wall over there.”
June 11th, 2008 at 11:10 amESTYes, I noticed that. “Vitriol” is another name for sulfuric acid. Its effects are not nuanced.
If you find my comments “bitterly scathing,” that’s in the mind of the reader and beyond my control. I see more bitterness and hatred coming from the true believers, and that too is in the mind of the reader.
You posted an incorrect definition, which misled someone who read your post. I corrected your error. You’re welcome.
June 11th, 2008 at 11:19 amESTDean,
June 11th, 2008 at 11:27 amESTI am most-truly sorry if I misled you. I will now go and flagellate myself until my back is scored.
That is why I always post links for defintions, so that one may judge for oneself.
I hope that you will accept my sincere apology for my most heinous crime, which nonetheless does not negate the amount, or lack thereof, of vitriol being spewed forth from any particular comment.
Heather
Ah, the irony is thick here. I hear speak of tactlessness, but where was the tact in using such a bigoted phrase as a title? I hear speak of condescension, but is it not condescending self-righteously insult those who you disagree with? What great trespass has been done against you that has not been returned a hundredfold?
And, most importantly, why should we avoid speaking truth for fear of offending you? Your pain does not entitle you to bigotry. Your tragedy does not excuse your trespasses.
As far as I can tell, there has been little breach of civility from the atheist’s end. I have not read a “fuck you” statement from that camp. Your supporters, I fear, do not show such politeness.
And yes, it was insensitive to point out the wrongness of the title. Just as it was insensitive to post the title. Your hypocrisy does not go unnoticed. Perhaps, when you better understand your own insults, you will better understand why others speak out against you.
So, best of luck to you, may Joe have a successful and swift recovery, may you learn more of yourself from this encounter, and may you never truly learn the horrors that abound on the internet.
June 11th, 2008 at 6:21 pmESTI’d like to ammend one of my earlier comments; NRen2k5 is excessively uncivil.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:34 pmESTNo apologies needed, Snowdog, and the sentiment is duly noted with the utmost appreciation. That’s a big committment right there!
June 11th, 2008 at 8:40 pmESTThese asshats (atheists — whatever, the term is now synonymous in my mind) were messing with my happy place, and that seems to bring out the best and worst in me. Ah needz mah happy place.
I also have enjoyed your comments in the past. This forum is the best place to appreciate and learn more about others’ educated opinions without being totally castigated that I have thus far found.
Or to screw with the asshats. They’re both entertaining pasttimes.
Take care.
Self-righteousness is not a quality reserved for the religious.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:56 pmESTHey Rachel. I am a long-time reader but infrequent commenter. I do enjoy reading the comments, though. It is enjoyable to be able to read spirited debate that gets me thinking. It is sad, however when some who are not regular readers take offense at something never meant to cause it and then take the comment thread spiraling down a dark and nasty tunnel. Not very fun for you to read I would wager. Just hope you don’t let it turn you off from blogging again. I know I would miss my daily dose of Rchl Lukis!
Also I am happy to hear Joe is doing better and I will keep him and your/Rupert’s family in my prayers.
Addie
June 11th, 2008 at 10:27 pmESTThere is no way I am reading 321 comments.
Why are the atheists in such a foam-up? Instructive, as you have said yourself. In psych, we call this “projection”; in short, it is the casting of flaws/insecurities one has in oneself onto others, claiming THEY are the ones with the flaw/insecurity.
Example: A man seething with anger, then accuses his wife of being short-tempered with him.
Atheists? At least the ones you are suffering from are a bunch of intolerant, insenstive, selfish fundamentalist believers who then accuse others of having these same faults.
June 11th, 2008 at 11:36 pmESTRachel,
I hope and pray all will be well with Rupert’s father.
Atheists believe in Atheism…..believe….as in they have a belief that there is no Deity and they adhere to this belief…kind of like, ya know….Christians who adhere to their belief in Christ and such.
For a group of people who abhor religion and those that believe in it, they sure do defend their religion…errr beliefs just like Christians do….
June 12th, 2008 at 10:02 amESTcouch1971 Says:
There may be some differences in how the different groups defend their beliefs. Rachel doesn’t seem to need to do this with the Christians.
June 12th, 2008 at 5:27 pmESTHeather: no worries, ultimately I am responsible for figuring these things out myself.
KrisL: I was referring to this separate thread Rachel set up for this topic, and again my gratitude to Rachel for doing so. It shows rare grace. I agree we have no free speech on Rachel’s blog other than what Rachel allows. For whatever reason, she has chosen to allow this. We physically cannot say anything she does not allow. I’m sure someone less resilient would have closed this thread. We don’t have the power to annihilate anything, let along Rachel’s freedom of speech on her own blog. In fact, she is exercising it by choosing to host this ‘happening’. Atheists are more highly represented in the military than in the general population. I’ve served and so have many thousands of others. The first atheist I ever knowingly met, I met while I was in the military. One of my step-brothers is an atheist and was also a marine. He served in Afghanistan and Iraq and is maimed for life. The phrase does not sound like a pleasantry to me, but like an assertion that he (and the rest of us) are cowardly and dishonest. If it’s elitist to say I feel that way, then I guess I’m elitist. That is the probably the most polite name that a theist has called an atheist in this comment section.
We’re in a time of transition. The old rules are changing. For decades what Rachel said was a cliche’, a platitude. I’m just trying to let people know. OTH, although I don’t like to hear ’shut up’, I respond pretty well to ‘lighten up’.
A local priest and a pastor were fishing on the side of the road. They thoughtfully made a sign saying, “The End is Near! Turn yourself around now before it’s too late!” and showed it to each passing car.
One driver who drove by didn’t appreciate the sign and shouted at them, “Leave us alone, you religious nuts!”
All of a sudden they heard a big splash, looked at each other, and the priest said to the pastor, “You think maybe we should have just said ‘Bridge Out’ instead?”
June 14th, 2008 at 2:44 pmESTTo you “foxhole atheists”,
I have to say, I have quite a bit of respect for you. I don’t know what I’d do if I were in fear of my life and all I had to look forward to should I die was an eternal dirt nap.
July 9th, 2008 at 3:39 pmEST