Men all up in your grill at the gun range.
Caleb at Call Me Ahab the other day about women and shooting, and part of his material was my responses to a questionnaire, along with ’s and ’s. Go listen!
Towards the end, he talks about how some men treat women at the gun range, such as when men you don’t even know will come up to you and give you “tips”. He points out how uncool that is, and I wholly concur. A few examples:
Many years ago, I was at the range with my ex, John. We were obviously together, and John was helping me load, aim, and fire by telling me all the necessary techniques (it was probably my second time ever at the range). John knows guns and there were no gaps in his instructions; in fact, I very much wanted him to shut up and leave me alone with my gun.
It was an outdoor range, where there are just long chest-height benches for you to put your crap on, with no dividers for each shooter. So there was a man right next to us, and I noticed him watching us for about half an hour. Then John had to go into the building for a minute to buy more ammo, and as soon as he walked away, this dillwad next to us sidled over to me.
He started asking me how long I’d been shooting and if I had any questions. I pleasantly told him if I did, I’d ask my boyfriend. Tryin’ to be nice! He didn’t take the hint, and told me, “Well, I’m a gun hobbyist and I shoot every weekend, and I’ve just noticed your form needs some work.”
No shit, Sherlock, that’s why I’m here and why my boyfriend is teaching me. Trust me, we’ve got it covered. I told him that, again quite pleasantly, because the thing is, the guy wasn’t creepy. He was polite, and not really pushy at all - he just thought he could help. Which was real sweet of him, but what the fuck? I pointed out to him that no matter what he thought of my form, he could look at my targets and see plainly that I was getting the job done. I really am a good shot.
He finally took the hint and left me alone, but goddamn, it annoyed me so bad. I’ve since talked to tons of women who’ve told me the EXACT same thing happens to them every time they go to the range, even if they’re with a man. Guys, don’t do that. Do you go up to random men at the range and offer them help? I’ve never seen it. It’s incredibly condescending and usually completely unnecessary. It happened to me one other time, and I again gestured towards my target, which was filled with holes in the center, unlike the target of the guy who was trying to “help” me, which I pointed out, and the dude acted all offended. HUH??
And one other example happened just last weekend when I was at the range with my brother Rick, his wife, and another couple, David and Tiffany. It was Tiffany’s second time at a range, and between David and Rick, she was getting a very thorough training session. But guess what, after about an hour, when David stepped back away from the benches to chat with me while I took a break, in swooped the “range cop” guy. You know, the dude in a bright vest who goes up and down the range making sure people are following the rules.
Not five feet away from her husband, this jackass walked right up to Tiffany and started telling her what she was doing wrong and how to fix it. Again, he wasn’t creepy, but oh for the love of GOD. He spent five minutes telling her nothing that David and Rick hadn’t already told her. Why? Why would you see that a woman is there with two men who both very clearly know exactly what they’re doing, and still think you’ve got something to add? Back the fuck off, man.
So I’m just saying. If women ask you for help, by all means help them. Otherwise, mind your own business. Because the thing is, it’s so very annoying that it actually makes our time at the range so much less pleasant that we hesitate to even go there because we know we’re gonna have to deal with that crap. And we can’t be all “tough” and tell guys like that to take a hike with any hint of hostility. It’s a gun range, one of the few places in the world where you really, really have to maintain calm politeness, almost excessively so.
Yes, we can tell them “no thanks” and it usually works, but still. It annoys us deeply. Believe it and deal with it. If you want to tell strangers how to shoot, get a job teaching a conceal-carry course.
Once I was at the range with a female friend and my husband. I was sharing a lane with my friend and my husband was two lanes away. Right next to us, however, was two men. I think one was teaching the other how to shoot. Anyway, I was taking my turn shooting and when I was finished I stepped back only to find my friend with a pissed off look on her face.
“What’s wrong?” I asked.
She looked over at the men next to us. “That guy just took a photo of you with his cell phone.”
Dude, WTF? Probably a “chicks with guns” fetishist or whatever - and you know, I can understand that. Chicks with guns are HOT. But at least ask permission first. Especially when the girl is armed, sheesh.
Assholes are everywhere.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:25 amAs long as the shooter (be it man or woman) isn’t doing anything dangerous, I think it’s incredibly rude to start telling them how to shoot. I mean, really, don’t guys realize that they’re painting “I’m an asshole” across their foreheads when they do this?
Yeah, I know, but it was a rhetorical question. If they weren’t assholes to begin with, none of this would be an issue.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:33 amHe wasn’t creepy, so what’s the big deal? Are you as a woman completely unable to accept friendly help?
I’ve been shooting a long time, but just a year or two ago someone gave me some advice that made a big difference in my already pretty good shooting. I’m not going to win competitions, but I’m an expert shooter.
The thing is, perhaps your boyfriend didn’t know everything. Sometimes people are just being friendly and trying to be helpful. It’s easier to be helpful to someone of the opposite sex than it is to another man.
If you didn’t want the help, you were right to blow him off, but I think you might be a bit harsh in your characterization of his intentions.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:36 amI’m more likely to ask for advice than to offer it. Some guys just can’t believe that a woman doesn’t want their advice. I call them ‘jerks’.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:38 amPreach it, Rachl!
April 11th, 2008 at 11:38 amUnsolicited advice is almost always unwelcome in any situation. Providing it in an environment that involves firearms seems less than intelligent from here.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:40 amNah! Rachel’s right! You don’t see guys going up to newbie guys as often as they do to newbie gals. Unsolicited help is generally unwanted, no matter what the venue.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:43 amYes, I do see men helping other men. I really don’t see the big deal, so long as he wasn’t being creepy.
Most shooting ranges are friendly places, people sometimes interact and chat, ask about each other’s weapons, offer tips and experiences and try to enjoy being among other human beings. It’s often very refreshing after how most of us interact in our urban lives.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:48 amI HATE that at the range! It’s like they lurk and then pounce when they think that you will just drop to your knees and thank them from the bottom of your mouth for helping a “little lady” out.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:51 amThese are the same guys that come over and want to tell me how to back up or hook up my motorhome, or the boat down the ramp or whatever, but you don’t see them over there helping me lift shit that I could really use the help with. All mouth, no back. And yeah, I’m usually a better shot than they are too.
Condescending much? God I hate that.
I used to work with a young woman, we were out interacting with the public together everyday and it shocked me to realize the situations that she found intimidating. Poor thing actually shot herself in the face with pepper spray once.
However, I find there are obnoxious loudmouths that are perfectly willing to approach other men at the range and offer unwanted unsolicited advice and critique.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:52 amAh, the dark side of chivalry. : )
An old girlfriend of mine used to complain to me about something similar. Her dad taught metalworking at an engineering school and sometimes he let her come in and use the welding torch on the sly. The only problem was that whenever he left her alone his male students would hang all over her and try to “assist” her welding. It drove her nuts because half the time she was actually a better welder than they were.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:54 amIf it makes you feel any better, some dilholes do this to everyone. I’m a guy, a pretty burly looking guy, and I shoot big, loud guns. And yet there’s always some guy (a hobbyist, a former competitive shooter, whatever) who wants to offer unsolicited advice.
For instance, the last time I took my shotgun to the 100yd range, there were the usual guffaws, and one guy who felt the need to tell me where the 25yd range was. After I dropped three slugs in a 6″ cluster, they pretty much shut their yaps.
April 11th, 2008 at 12:04 pmI think you underestimate how extremely attractive a good looking young woman wielding a gun at the range might be to your average red blooded male.
I’m not the type to intrude like the guy in your post did. I might have to force myself not to look at you though.
The other day I was at the local Sam’s Club buying some household stuff and when my turn came in line the very striking woman at the register looked at me and said “graf spek doew frig nos?” or that’s what I heard anyway. I hadn’t looked at her before that and she was so striking that I just went dumb.
Now, I’m 50 years old and I’d like to think I’m immune to that stuff at this point in my life but clearly I am not.
I’m not excusing his behavior, which sounds really boorish. I’m just saying sometimes men do really dumb things around women without meaning any harm or even realizing they’re being offensive.
April 11th, 2008 at 12:09 pmBelieve me, it happens to men all the time. So much so, that at one club they implemented a new by-law last year permitting members to shoot anyone giving unwanted advice. It did the trick.
April 11th, 2008 at 12:23 pmIt has always struck me that the guys who do that sort of thing are basically showing off with the added component of flirtation if they’re speaking to an attractive female. I suspect they’re getting a big mental erection thinking about how impressed and appreciative we are that they’ve selected us for the honor of imparting their precious pearls of wisdom. Not! If — as most women do — one tries to be polite to them, they’re usually too clueless to get the hint. It’s annoying to be courteous when you really want to say, “Buzz off.”
April 11th, 2008 at 12:25 pmPreach it Rachel! I shoot a .357 magnum every weekend. I’m a good shot too. And yet I get unsolicited advice from guys at the range that I’ve never seen before. Leave me the hell alone for crying out loud! “If you lean forward you’ll handle the recoil better.”. Yeah, and you’ll get a better view of my ass. By the way Mr. Nosey, you just limp wristed your fan-boy Desert Eagle. Let me show you how to clear that jam.
April 11th, 2008 at 12:27 pmWell, Rachel, I wasn’t there and don’t know if the persons involved were being obnoxious or not. You think so. It looks like most of the ladies think so. Certainly, guys hitting on all the ladies at a range is REALLY obnoxious.
I shot long range prone rifle competition (600-1,000 yds) for years. It takes a lot of work and some time to get proficient. Many excellent shooters taught me. Most would just wander over and offer a suggestion. Some of the best advice was from a woman shooter. But then, these folks shot “High Master” and were excellent shooters. Some I didn’t care for personally, but if their information was useful, I would gladly use it.
FWIW, there are some real jackasses at the range. If this is a social occasion, that’s one thing. If you are interested in learning to shoot better, think twice before shooting the messenger. It also helps to know the person’s credentials before opening the door. This keeps many would be experts at bay.
April 11th, 2008 at 12:45 pmIf I’m ever in Texas, and at the gun range with you, I’m putting at LEAST a good 100 feet between us.
Good way to get hurt!
;-P
April 11th, 2008 at 12:50 pmThat’s the RSO, the Range Safety Officer. The RSO likely could not hear what instruction she’d been given (after all, he stands around a shooting range all day) and if she was still doing things a bit wrong in regards to safe range practice, it’s his job to come over and make polite (and sometimes not-so-polite) suggestions.
Of course, he may just have been patronizing her. But RSO’s tend to come and chat with anyone who looks remotely like a neo in their weapons handling. Unlike the guy in the next booth who just volunteers to “help” you, the RSO is supposed to be doing that.
April 11th, 2008 at 12:54 pmI’ve rarely had anyone try to “help” me, but I did once have a guy ask me I was practicing so I could go home and shoot my boyfriend. WTF?
I just assumed he was jealous that my firearms were so much nicer than any his wife would let him buy, and laughed at him.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:02 pmI love women shooting. Not that way!! Get your head out of the gutter. I figure if a woman shoots she has some form of self reliance which is a big, big plus in my book. Single after 16 years of hell. Welp, off to the range….
April 11th, 2008 at 1:08 pmI understand this completely. Men ARE weird, and as a man, I can say that.
Sure, there are SOME men who go around giving “help” to men and women alike. These are just people who want to feel important. But for the most part, a typical member of the male species is about 5000 times more likely to walk up to a strange woman and offer her help with her tools (be they firearms, welding torches, power tools, or just about anything that doesn’t live in the laundry room) than he is likely to offer similar unsolicited advice to a man. Except when it comes to car repair. There is something about seeing another person, man or woman, looking under the hood that compels ALL men to walk up out of the blue, without having ANY idea what is going on, and say things like “you know, you should…”
But other than that, yes, men DO target women because men assume women are incompetent with anything associated with men. And men always assume that the other man who has been helping you all this time but has just momentarily walked away is either your brother, your priest, or gay - most likely your gay brother the priest. That’s why we waited for him to walk away… talk about a mood killer!
I admit it. We suck. Just consider it balancing out the way women ALWAYS complain that men: cleaned the kitchen wrong, folded the laundry wrong, vacuumed the carpet wrong…
April 11th, 2008 at 1:14 pmI figure the guys are just looking for an excuse to make conversation and show off a little. If they are charming or a veteran, I don’t mind. But if I’m in a bad mood, I find their unsolicited tutelage to be unwelcome and condescending, as if I know less than them because I’m female. I rapidly disabuse them of that notion.
Amen, sistah!
April 11th, 2008 at 1:21 pmI’ve been the RSO at an indoor range.
When ANYONE entered the firing line, I let them know that if they had any questions; they could ask me.
Then you leave them alone. The RSO’s job is to leave people ALONE unless they;
1. ASK for help.
2. Need a Safety intervention.
A firing line is not a singles bar.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:22 pmYour “form” needs work? WTF? Does that douchbag hobbyist who’s there at the gun range every single weekend even realize that in a real gun fight, there is no such thing as form? Every study, every statistic ever done regarding real world shoot outs all show the same thing. NOBODY assumes a proper shooters stance when the bullets start flying. I would have LOVED to point out to Mr. A-hole that he’d better spend him time at the range practicing shooting the target at 15 feet or less, pulling the trigger as fast as his fingers work, one handed.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:28 pmGawd I hate people like that.
Range? Range??
Isn’t that something you cook on?
I want to shoot I just go outside. The hundred acres behind my house doesn’t care.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:31 pmDearRachl -
April 11th, 2008 at 1:33 pmMost American (and a lot of foreign) men are firm believers that they were born with three inate abilities:
a)the ability to drive like a race-car driver with no instruction whatsoever.
b)they are fantastic lovers and accomplished sexual athletes by virtue of testosterone.
c)they are expert shots and gun-handlers on a par with Wild Bill Hickok - just because they are MEN. And it’s their duty to instruct you in proper firearms handling; which will get you hot. They can then drive at high speed to their lair; where they will then amaze you with their sexual repertoire.
Thankfully (for me) I’m too old for all of that except shooting. And, if you want my help, I assume that you’ll ask for it.
Gah. I detest unsolicited advice. My brain just clicks off when I hear “What you need to do is…”
I’ve learned not to say “If I wanted help, I’d ask for it” because, unfortunately, the “help” usually comes from my dad, my stepdad, other male relatives or friends. Typically, the advice is something I already thought of or did but couldn’t say because the fellow interrupted me. Ahem.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:35 pmOkay, Rakel, good points.
But you WOmen might want to know the inside dope on YOUR behavior.
I second what Gullyborg said….
We guys don’t esp like it when women come up to us and say,
“Hey, that’s a pretty fucked up tie, buster.”
[Oh, yeah? Well, I can change my tie, but you are pretty much stuck with that pie-shaped face, lady."]
Or, “Are you REALLY gonna hang that picture THERE?!”
[Well, I was. But now I'm gonna hang it on your ass."]
Or. “Just for your information, your shirt and pants don’t match.”
[Oh, really? Well, your legs don't match."]
Or, “Well, I think you should get your (wife, girlfriend) something better than THAT.”
["Ha. It was for you!"]
Or, “Your car is kinda messy, huh?”
["So are your panties."]
In summary.
Sausez for teh gander = Sausez for teh gooses
April 11th, 2008 at 1:38 pmI say not just the gun range, life in general. Don’t be a pompous ass volunteering help if someone don’t ask for it.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:43 pmPutting aside the obvious come-ons, there’s a fine line between friendly and patronizing / know-it-all-y. I don’t think it’s a stretch to put a lot of the unsolicited “help” that women get in the latter category, especially when it occurs over and over and over again, in a pastime that appeals mostly to men.
You see the same thing at gyms, with dudes going up to any woman who comes into the weight room and offering unsolicited tips on lifting form. You see it in a lot of guitar shops too: the staff, or the other customers, tend to treat any woman who comes in as a presumptive novice who needs to either be treated like a child when asking about merchandise, or given a demonstration of one’s own awesome skills on the instrument instead of being allowed to browse and try stuff out on their own.
It’s the assumption that any woman getting involved in activities that are largely the province of men just must need a man’s advice, and should be appreciative of any man who offers it and suitably impressed with the man’s expertise. I can see how it would get annoying as hell to somebody who’s either already competent at the activity or just wants to be treated the same way as anyone else who partakes in it.
Even as a guy, I get annoyed at know-it-alls who offer unsolicited advice at something I may not be perfect at but I manage to get by OK on. Again, there’s a subtle difference between advice that’s going to be appreciated and advice that’s going to be seen as patronizing and show-offy — and I think some of the guys who tend to be drawn to activities such as shooting, weight training, welding, motorcycle riding, whatever, may not have a real strong ability to pick up on the social cues that will tell them where the line is.
A good rule of thumb is if the conversation naturally drifts towards the area of technique, then it may be appropriate to say something like, “By the way, I noticed that your grip is a little off from standard,” or whatever. But just going right up to someone and correcting their technique if they didn’t ask for your help and aren’t being obviously unsafe: rude and patronizing.
When someone just won’t take a hint, I find that the line, “I don’t recall asking for your help” does the trick if you don’t care about hurting their feelings. (I hope that isn’t a piece of unwanted advice right there.)
April 11th, 2008 at 1:45 pmI see the guys at the range I go to help male strangers all the time. They usually start out by asking “Can I give you some advice?” or something of that nature. It’s always friendly. And like on other reader above, I found it helpful sometimes despite 30 years on a trigger.
It sounds to me, since no one was being creepy, that a lot of women on here have a chip on their shoulder. Just sayin’
Now, having your boyfriend, husband, whatever along, it may be brazen to approach in a spirit other then genuinely being helpful, but WTF? How are men supposed to meet women, especially women who are into they same things they are if they don’t… you know… meet women? Do you get just as mad if a guy tries to meet you at a bar? At the grocery store? And y’all wonder why we think you’re nuts!
April 11th, 2008 at 1:52 pmWhen I purchased my first shotgun (well, my only shotgun so far), I wanted to learn how to shoot it, so I went with my brother and his girlfriend’s dad (gun nut extraordinaire, also elder at our church) to a skeet range. Someone had already shown me how to stand with the gun, but shooting it was a different story. I didn’t care whether I hit anything, I just wanted something to shoot at while learning how to shoot (and still targets are boring).
Thankfully, the skeet range wasn’t full of young whippersnappers, but a bunch of well-meaning old men. They took one look at my 18″ Winchester Defender (20ga pump action, yeah!) and asked me if I really intended to shoot skeet with it. One guy said, “We really need to get you a bigger gun! We don’t want you to get frustrated and never come back!”
It was cute, honestly, but I didn’t do so well when they tried to coach me *while* I was shooting. I always do worse, because I’m thinking of tips instead of having fun and focusing on my target.
Anyway, I had good days and bad days. On one of the good days, I had a guy come up to me and put a dime in my barrel to see if I had a choke installed. Nope – I really *was* hitting those skeet with my short little gun! On my best day, I shot 13 out of 25, and did better than the two young guys who were shooting with me. (In their defense, I’m not sure they’d ever shot before. And one of their guns kept jamming. But I shot well with my dinky shotgun and finally outshot someone – and that was all that was important. Hee!)
April 11th, 2008 at 1:58 pmWhy would anyone want to talk to a strange woman, let alone one who is armed?
April 11th, 2008 at 2:26 pmWhaddya mean? Who wouldn’t? Women with firearms are sexyyyyyy
April 11th, 2008 at 2:34 pmHi Rachel.
Do you play golf?
Wondering if you (or any commentors) have any stories regarding unsolicited advice at a driving range or on a golf course.
April 11th, 2008 at 2:41 pmSteve Ronin, if you’ve certified NRA-RSO you know that any range safety procedures over and above the very very basics are determined by the individual range. And that the very very basics include educating users in safety protocols. Note what I said about “…if she was still doing things a bit wrong in regards to safe range practice…”
The very worst safety offenders in requiring “advice” are usually the early-20-something males who still know everything–except how to consistently follow the range safety SOP’s. Distant second is people under instruction by relatives, regardless of gender.
I wasn’t there and don’t know that the RSO wasn’t just coming over to politely emphasize an instruction such as “always leave the firearm open to show clear when setting it down” because he’d seen her miss doing so a few times.
Of course he very well may have been patronizing the pretty lady–or basking in her presence…after all, women with guns really are sexy….
April 11th, 2008 at 2:55 pmHmmm… I hope I haven’t been rude…
In your situation, I probably wouldn’t have bothered you. You had someone there to answer your questions, you weren’t doing anything stupid… none of my business. I might very well have said Hi, but that’s about it.
I do sometimes offer advice, always with the stated prefix that if I’m unwelcome, please let me know and I’ll leave you alone. The types of situations where I will interfere are as follows:
Unsafe behavior; The range I shoot at is public, and unsupervised. I don’t care who you are, if you’re doing something stupid, I’m liable to say something. I try to be nice… at least the first time…
No hearing protection; I shoot big boomers, even if you’re just shooting a .22. If someone is at the line without hearing protection, I always offer them a pair of plugs. I have a big bag of them, they’re brand new, no charge. You don’t want them? Fine by me, I offered.
A new shooter who’s ‘instructor’ is shooting something that’s liable to knock them over; I’ve seen young children and small framed women, out for their first range trip, who’s father/boyfriend/whatever brought nothing but a Glock in .45acp. I try to approach the father/boyfriend/whatever first, to make sure I’m not stepping on any toes, and offer to let them try one of my .22 pistols. Don’t want to? Ok, no problem. If they do want to try it, I’ll hand them the gun and a 50 round box of ammo, and ask if they need any assistance loading or handling the gun. If they don’t fine, if they do, I’m happy to help. A dollar worth of .22lr may very well turn their negative range visit into a positive one. Well worth it.
As a gray bearded fatman who has a wife and 4 daughters, I figure I have all the women I need. I’m just as happy to help men as I am women, I’m just interested in making sure everyone’s trip to the range is as enjoyable as mine.
Your post makes me think perhaps I’m doing something wrong… Am I?
April 11th, 2008 at 3:00 pmI do out door shooting (I live in the middle of the desert). We use an old railroad berm as a backstop, and collect all of our brass (the tracks aren’t even on the berm anymore). I’ll put it this way, no neighbors for miles. The place I always hear unsolicited advice (especially when there with a young lady) is the bowling alley. I’ll grant you, I suck at bowling, but still it’s obvious the two of us are on a date, and the women can’t stop trying to give me advice, and the men can’t stop trying to give her advice. It is really quite annoying there, not because they are hitting on us (which, at least towards me, they definitely were not) but because they are injecting themselves into our time.
April 11th, 2008 at 3:33 pmIf I were a woman, and the guy who had been standing next to me for a half hour started to chat me up as soon as the guy I was there with went to the bathroom, then yeah, I think I would get pissed. I’m the type to make an offer of advice*, but I always ask while the person who might be likely to kick my ass is NOT away from the woman in question, so they understand it IS advice, and I’m not looking to score with their woman. And I get the message if they say, “No, thanks”, unlike the one Rachel first told about did.
Edited to note: I’m not going to be giving advice at the Range, because I’m not experienced enough. I’m a Bowler, and used to be a Baseball player in my youth, so I would be offering my advice either on the bowling lanes or the ball field.
April 11th, 2008 at 3:35 pmMaureen just sent me here from ABP. You are hilarious. Living in St. Louis and after a mood-altering mugging in Forest Park, protection seemed in order. I didn’t receive any advice at the range being so clearly incompetent, suspect the guys were ducking and scattering every time I fired. Squeaking and flinching while firing does not inspire confidence in anyone. I finally stowed the nine and acquired a really accessible Ruger 22 semi-automatic with high velocity rounds. It still shot fire out the barrel but the blast was such that involuntary noises were a thing of the past.
April 11th, 2008 at 3:41 pmGuys, we all love you to pieces. Sometimes we just want to stumble along on our own.
Raving Lunatic:
Oh, YEAH. I took pains to point out in each of my examples that both Tiffany and I were there with men and the approaching “help” always occurred the instance the accompanying men moved slightly away. Never while our boyfriend/husband/brother was right there.
Which is kind of the point about my whole issue with this: if men are just as likely to offer unsolicited help to MEN, then why didn’t any of these guys come up to help while our men were standing there?
Do you see? This is not a chip-on-the-shoulder issue. I promise. I fully capitulate to the FACT that most men know more than I do about a whole fuckload of things, including guns. I like it when they help me when I need it/ask for it, which I do at a rate that is frankly embarrassing.
If these guys I’m talking about REALLY want to help, they’ll come up and tell the man I’m with the same thing they’re telling me. That is the only logical behavior with that intention.
Chris Midkiff:
NO, you’re not doing anything wrong. You’re talking about addressing safety issues - things that could get people hurt. I support that 100% no matter what.
The guys I was describing were telling us nothing more than how to angle our feet for better aim and how to cock our shoulders at the correct angles. There were no safety issues, just technique. That’s what made it so annoying.
My brother would never go to the range with me or anyone else who didn’t follow the strictest safety guidelines. Before we even got in the car last weekend, Rick asked his wife and me to list the 4 rules of gun safety. He’s a grim taskmaster.
April 11th, 2008 at 3:49 pmTF, absolutely. One of my company’s pilots used to partner with a friend on foursomes. I’d start my backswing and the son-of-a-gun would shout, “WAIT!”
April 11th, 2008 at 4:10 pmI would have throttled him if I could have stopped laughing. He did it several times over the course of a few years. I think he retired, and I actually miss him.
I have a couple of scratch golfers that work for me. I strongly believe they get even with me on the course. As much as I’d like to flick their adam’s apple, I listen to every word in case something might sink in.
Rachel, you have to realize that I generally like to start shit on any day ending in ‘Y’. It’s just my aggrevating way.
Besides, whats the saying, “he who risks nothing gains nothing”? Most likely they had wives/girlfriends at home, too. They think that way, ergo, they think you do to. No more complicated than that. I’ve had guys come up and hit on my date before with me standing next to her. Personally, I would have appreciated the respect of waiting for me to leave before trying to push me out.
But seriously, maybe 1 in 15 people I see at the range is a woman. We’re just so excited to see a woman taking interest in guns, we’re like sloppy dogs eager to please. Just be happy we don’t pee on the floor as well!
April 11th, 2008 at 4:36 pmAnd waiting for the guys to be momentarily gone to do so…yep yep, that’s annoying. And for the RSO, a dereliction of duty. Supposed to be watching the range, not hittin’ on the wimmen.
ROFLMAO…all too true….
April 11th, 2008 at 4:44 pmA little different place but the same type thing. When my now 13 year old son started first grade I joined a gym with racquetball courts. I just wanted to fool around, work of calories and get my heart rate up.(I never played before) I went in the morning after I dropped my son off at school everyday. The first day I tried, I had a helpful stranger come to me and start giving me tips. I was polite and told him my goal was not to learn to play. As I have one of those large rings (I know you don’t like) I am married. The guy was relentless. Everyday the same polite conversation. I finally quit going.
I think these are people who are just assholes. They think they know everything about something and need to act this way.
April 11th, 2008 at 5:24 pmIt happens to men too. Probably not as often as it happens to women. I had the same shit happen to me about 3 months ago. I was breaking in a new rifle and tuning in a new scope. We were shooting at 200 yards.
When the range went cold some nitwit next to me started telling me about how I needed to change my form and how I needed to change my equipment for better accuracy.
We walked out to change targets together. His 50 rounds or so were all over the place. I think he hit the target with about 20 of them and the rest were on the cardboard but not on the target.
5 of my rounds were outside the 10 ring on the target from where I had to sight in the new scope. The 10 ring and the entire inside of it was gone on my target where I had put all 45 of the other rounds through it.
He noticed that and got a little red in the face when I told him that I had probably been shooting longer than he had been alive and that I was also classified as a Marksman when I was in the military which was also before he was born.
It turned out okay though. He STFU’d for awhile and then when most others around us had left, he asked me for some pointers on how to improve his accuracy. I gladly helped him out and suggested that he might want to keep his pointers to himself in the future unless someone asks for help.
We get along just fine now and I see his shooting, while still not as good as mine has improved quite a bit. By the way he is an NRA certified instructor and range officer. I guess them pieces of paper made him think he was top dog.
Me, I’m just a quiet old dog that would prefer to be left alone. But if you insist on irritating I will kindly outshoot most and gently put them in their place.
Molon Labe,
April 11th, 2008 at 6:57 pmJoe
Perfectly well-intentioned != not irritating.
I like men. I’m well aware that most men are heterosexual and have nothing against them for it. If approached by a strange man at the range and offered completely unsolicited advice, I do not have anything particular against him nor do I feel he’s violated some underlined social norm.
Am I annoyed that a disproportionate number of men feel the need to come over and kill my concentration out of a need to “help” or flirt, even when I’m very clearly with someone that has all my needs taken care of in that department, and I’m violating no safety rules? Sometimes. Especially if the “I’m not interested, thanks” message isn’t getting across. It’s tiring, and it kind of ruins the zen effect that’s one of the main reasons I like shooting in the first place.
Wanting to have an uninterrupted quiet afternoon engaging in a hobby without having to constantly fend off (perfectly nice! perfectly well-intentioned!) attentive strangers isn’t quite the same thing as having a chip on your shoulder.
April 11th, 2008 at 7:39 pmUnsolicited advice from men …
On the gun range (at least they have to be polite, and I get as many questions about how to get their wives/girlfriends interested in shooting. I had it better when I had an ‘NRA Instructor’ patch on my range bag.)
Over HAM radio issues. (Women can’t possibly understand technology - see “at work” below. I finally gave up on the whole thing as being too much like work.)
How to sail/fix/improve my boat. (I could devote a whole website to this. Guys at the range have nothing on guys at the dock - at the range, you pretty much have to be polite. At the dock they are a bunch of foul-mouthed sailors. Walk into a chandler - boat store - and they assume you are an idiot. I have had trouble buying fuel, since they wanted to deal with the captain. Hint: I’m the captain.)
At work - when I was last in corporate America, I was in the same specialty for about 18 years, I was usually hired by the companies where I worked to be the local “expert” in the technology. There was always at least one jerk who was convinced I couldn’t know technology. Usually more than one. If I pointed out that I did know the technology, I was labeled a witch - That’s Witch, with a capital “B.”
April 11th, 2008 at 8:03 pmThis is why I belong to a gun club, plus it’s cheaper. We leave each other alone except when we offer to let someone shoot our guns or vice versa.
If I were a girl, I’d just keep my ear muffs on and ignore kibitzers.
April 11th, 2008 at 8:14 pmHuh. The only person besides Frank who has ever given me advice at the range is the man who taught my concealed carry class. I do notice a lot of them watching my targets (which are awesome). Then again, I can’t remember Frank ever leaving me at the range. Any time we needed more targets, I think I’ve always gone for them.
But yeah, that would annoy the crap out of me. Hitting on another man’s chick.
April 11th, 2008 at 9:11 pmAnother “Amen” here, Rachel. That’s so off-putting. I’m still a newbie, so I continue to go to hubby and friends for instruction when I’m at the range (hope to get back there early May :).
April 11th, 2008 at 10:04 pmIf someone outside of that group came in to offer his take on my “form”, it would just make me edgy, which is counter-productive; NOT the vibe you want to push on anyone in possession of firearms who is working on trying to be comfortable around them.
There’s another side to this. Nine times out of ten, when I see a man at a public range “teaching” his SO how to shoot, he’s a dangerous imbecile who can’t hit the paper himself, and he’s starting her off with a .357, .44, or .45 with full-power ammo. His goal, conscious or not, is to teach her that guns are a “guy thing”, and that she should leave them to him. I find that unacceptable, especially since this sort of guy never gives a competent safety lecture.
If they’re next to me, my usual response is to pull out a .22 and start shooting slow, tight groups, and gradually engage them both in conversation, offering to let them try my gun. I’ll also demonstrate basic shooting technique, and invariably, she’s a lot happier with the .22, and within ten minutes a much better shot than he is.
I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of couples I’ve seen at public ranges that didn’t fit this profile. On the bright side, whenever I see women shooting without men, they’re shooting straight and having fun.
-j
April 11th, 2008 at 10:08 pmSome men can be real a$$holes, but for the most part, guys don’t hit on women who have to sneak up on a glass of water to get a drink. It’s a compliment. Besides, if you can safely drive a car while putting on your make-up, you can figure out a polite way to rid yourselves of guys who should have known better at the range.
April 12th, 2008 at 5:25 amRachel, let me tell you what you’re doing wrong.
*runs like hell*
8>)
April 12th, 2008 at 9:28 amI think guys don’t naturally follow the same boundary rules with women in general that they do with men. A guy would never just give advice to another guy like that unless the guy asked. They would figure,” If he wanted advice he would have asked for it”. However with women I think men feel they have the right to offer unsolicited advice by virtue that they think the shooting world is mainly a male dominated venue. Men and their guns and such shit. It is still rude and condescending and there is definitely a double standard. Would a guy feel completely willing to accept the advice of a woman at the range who was more expert ? I highly doubt it and he would be shocked at the offer to say the least and might leave with the feeling “who the hell does that chick think she is.”
April 12th, 2008 at 2:05 pmNext time, tell the guy that you only need to be able to shoot your cheatin ass boyfriend in the balls and then commit suicide with your gun, taking out anyone who tries to stop you……..bet they scatter then, lol!
April 12th, 2008 at 8:38 pmI talked to a friend tonight who shoots regularly and he says that if there is a girl at the range usually she is a better shot then all the guys there anyway. He said that most of the time that is a guy trying to “hit” on you so view it as a compliment. This from a red neck from cut n shoot texas.
April 12th, 2008 at 11:45 pmYou haven’t lived until a guy comes up to you to offer you some tips…
…while you’re taking a quick shooting break on the range at the shop where you happen to be the sales manager.
(To add insult to injury, he suggested I think about some modifications to my pistol. My very obviously well-worn $2,500 custom pistol. That he hadn’t even seen me shoot yet. He seemed hurt when I started laughing at him.)
April 13th, 2008 at 12:43 amI don’t shoot at a range much anymore . I now have thousands of acres of ranch/farmland to play on . I did however spend years as a firearms instructor /ro with a previous job. I guess the years mellowed my ” help the little gal gene” . If I am at a range nowadays I am there for myself and the folks with me. I don’t care if you shoot standing on your head and never hit the target as long as you do it in a safe manner . To my way of thinking you have things in hand unless and until you ask for help. If your mildly unsafe I am likely to just pack up and leave saying nothing to anyone because frankly it isn’t my problem. If your sweeping folks with the muzzle ect.. I will have a visit and you wont like me much either. If you offer me advise you most likely wont care for the response because I am pretty plain spoken and wont hesitate to advise you to go lay under the porch and lick your nuts like a good puppy .
April 14th, 2008 at 7:21 amDearRachel,
Having come into the thread after the weekend, I have not read all the pithy comments, however I will add two:
1. As an RSO (at the Marine Corps Base Quantico ranges, both indoor and outdoor - not bad for a Navy guy, huh?) I would always make a value judgement about all the shooters wrt their ability to safely fire onrange. Once I decided someone knew what they were doing (and was doing it right), I tended not to focus on them. Until that point, I would pay close attention, including talking to them during cease-fires. If the RSO comes over and chats for a short time, chances are he is forming an opinion. If he spends more than a couple of minutes with you, he has either decided to worry about you or is trying to pick you up; the former is his job, the latter is BS.
2. Someone asked how a man would react if a woman walked up and started similarly “helping” them. Well, I would rip my clothes off and ask the woman to take me there and then. So ladies, if you dont want to see that (and believe me, you dont) think twice before applying reciprocity in this matter.
April 14th, 2008 at 8:18 amv/r
Mike
Gee wiz, I’ve never had to deal with that at either of the ranges I go to (both indoor, mostly handguns). Even when my fiancé steps away to go buy more ammo, people leave me alone. But maybe that’s because of the crazy look I get in my eyes when I’m shooting a gun. They’re scared of me.
April 14th, 2008 at 12:13 pmI would pay $$$ to see some dude walk up to my wife at the range and try to tell her about ‘technique’ or ’stance’ or whatnot like she’s a three-year-old just learning to wipe herself. I’d bet a paycheck that he’d never pull that arrogant stunt again.
WTF, guys? The person is on the range and shooting a gun - assume they know what they’re doing.
As for me, my top-ten annoying range experiences all involve either 21-year-old frat boys who just bought their first gun (inevitably a .45) and can’t get over their excitement or thug gangsters who try to set up a target set at kneeling height at 3 yards to practice shooting with their shotgun - that is, until the RSO comes and kicks them out.
The best shooter I’ve ever seen - both in terms of safety and accuracy? A 12-year-old girl. Incredible shot. She all but spelled her name on the target.
April 17th, 2008 at 3:14 pmIt’s not an uncommon phenomenon. I can’t take my GF to the range at ALL - it’s not a bragging thing, but she’s just too pretty and very unaware of it - it attracts the dogs something fierce.
The phenomenon is not limited to GUYS, as one guy pointed out, guys will get ‘unsolicited advice’ too.
Me? I’ll approach someone ONLY if I want to shoot their gun - since I have about 150 of them, there are not many I haven’t shot - but I’m waiting for a FAMAS bullpup to show up some day.
I’m a cop, BTW, an instructor, etc… And MOST of the time the informal instruction a BF/SO is giving his girlfriend - SUCKS - same with choice of guns, the only sure way to find the right gun, is to find someone with a lot of them, and shoot them all. For instruction, I have taught my daughters (I’m relentless) but I always recommend a boyfriend/husband ‘MAN UP’ and pay for a real tactical shooting course where he does NOT attend. The lessons don’t stick well from a SO, don’t know why - but they don’t.
But what do I do? GLARE LIKE HELL, get in their face, etc… Rude, not ‘arrogant’ or ‘jerk’ just RUDE.
I’ve always wondered if a lot of guys go shooting because they’re married or in a relationship where the passion is gone - avoiding their wife, etc. And then to see a WOMAN that is sharing his hobby must be pure torture on their hormones.
April 28th, 2008 at 12:50 amI ran into a conundrum at the range recently…and being a man I of course did not do the right thing.
I was at the range peacefully punching holes in paper when I got tapped on the shoulder. A woman asked if I was familiar with a walther PPK which I was and came down and found the pistol jammed. She said she worked the slide but it wouldn’t clear. I dropped the magazine and pulled the slide and it popped out. I put the magazine back in and set the pistol down. She then picked it up and fired a shot and it jammed again. I noticed that she was firing with a VERY loose grip and that was keeping the pistol from cycling properly (and hurting her aim), hence the jamming. I told her she needed to tighten her grip on the pistol and the jamming should stop. That was a mistake. She proceeded to tell me she didn’t need a man to critique her firing technique and I could be on my way. Wow…all I could think on the way back to my lane was “biiiitttccchhhh”. Did I overstep a boundary there? The inability to clear a jam gave me the impression that the follow up tip could or would be appreciated. Women, married one but wasn’t given the owners manual.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:24 pmI was going to teach my daughters to shoot at the Sierra Vista Gun Club East of Sierra Vista, Arizona. The man running the range was hateful and rude to my daughters and me and within ten minutes, I demanded my money back. I will never again and would never recommend anyone to go to that range.
When I contacted the owner I got much of the same BS. I told the owner whose name I have misplaced that I would never return and would spread the word on the poor actions of the range personnel and the poor treatment my Daughters received from these hateful and rude jerks.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:35 pm