Over at Dr. Helen’s , I found a link to by a woman who is truly a remarkable individual, willing to personally insult the father of her children on the internet and to clear up once and for all any questions anyone out there might have about why men sometimes don’t want to get married. Get a load of this:
I admit that my husband helps out more than many men, but here’s another news flash: It isn’t because he’s such a fabulously enlightened being. Left to his own devices, he would doubtless park himself in front of the TV like some sitcom male-chauvinist couch potato while I did all the work. The reason Jeremy “helps” as much as he does (an offensive terminology that itself suggests who’s really being held responsible) is simple: He doesn’t have a choice.
…So how have I accomplished this? By holding my husband’s feet to the fire every single day of our lives, of course.
Yes, dear readers, it’s true: Maintaining some semblance of parity in your marriage requires you to deploy the same kinds of nasty tactics you swore you would never stoop to as a parent but nonetheless found yourself using the minute you actually had a kid. Bribery and punishment work; so do yelling and complaining. Threats are also effective, as long as everyone knows you mean business. With husbands, tender blandishments and nooky are particularly useful, as is the withholding of the aforementioned.
…When my husband has lingered too long over the sports section and I’m feeling overwhelmed by the number of errands that must be run, I hand him a list. “This is what I need you to do today,” I say in a tone of voice that brooks no equivocation. He may moan and groan, but the jobs get done. And while I still have to mastermind the operation — somehow he is never the one who remembers that our son needs new mosquito netting, baseball cleats, and basketball shoes for sleepaway camp…
…in my experience husbands are a lot like children. They will get away with whatever they can get away with. When you put your foot down and make it clear that you won’t take no for an answer, somehow the kids’ rooms get cleaned, the groceries bought, the laundry folded. It really does work, I promise.
Wow. And here I was blundering through life with the idiotic idea that you shouldn’t marry a man who’s not already a fully functioning, self-sufficient adult human being. Wrong! Marry any guy you like (even if he is clearly nowhere near your personal standards), make babies with him, and then treat him like a child for the rest of your life because that makes you feel powerful. That means you are not taking any SHIT from any lazy worthless no-good MAN.
Throw in a little withholding of sex and affection, and a nice dose of public humiliation with an article on MSNBC about what a dumbass he is, and you, too, will be a selfless heroine martyr. It’s so easy and I’m pissed I didn’t think of it first.
Now I’m hoping that if and when Rupert and I get married, I’ll go into it with grave misgivings about some aspect of his personality but will let him know in no uncertain terms that I will bitch that part of him straight to death if he doesn’t straighten up PRONTO. If I’m lucky, he won’t straighten up at all except to OBEY ME under the crushing weight of despair and misery, so that many years from now, I can get paid to write an article about how childish he is.
All the while, I will refuse to ever contemplate what sort of effect my condescending, hateful attitude towards him has on his quality of life and his personal satisfaction with our marriage. Screw that crap, who cares? He’s just a MAN. I will never take a moment to sit down and consider whether my behavior might just be making him hate my guts. Because now I know the truth, and the truth is that white men are not only racists (see last post), but also childish morons.
Oh my god, it’s so liberating!
Another thing I’ll be sure never to do, from now on as I fully manifest my inner bitch-martyr, is to ever stop for one fucking MINUTE to think about how I am singlehandedly causing every young man who reads my articles to run screaming in terror the minute a girl utters the word “marriage” to him. I will not worry that my words do nothing but a disservice to other women, confirming ugly stereotypes and mens’ worst fears about taking on a wife. It’s not MY problem if men are too weak and immature to sign up for a life closely resembling a forced death march.
I’m going to have to write a letter personally thanking Leslie Bennetts, the author of this enlightening piece on gender relations, for waking me up to a whole new world of endless possibilities. I’m already making lists of things for Rupert to DO RIGHT NOW, as soon as he gets back from Iraq. And, he hasn’t proposed to me yet but I’m pretty sure he will within a month of returning, after I’ve taught him a lesson or two about how if he doesn’t put his coffee cup in the dishwasher, he will not get any physical affection from me, no sir! Because now I know what is really important: getting everything my way. Awesome.
UPDATE: Moron Pundit if a man wrote this article and everything was switched up. Well played, MP. Well played.
…in my experience wives are a lot like children. They will get away with whatever they can get away with. When you put your foot down and make it clear that you won’t take no for an answer, somehow the balls get licked and the dinner cooked and the babies cared for. It really does work, I promise.
You know why men usually die before their wives do, don’t ya? It’s because they want to.
That woman who wrote the article must have a magic va-jajay or something. Maybe it’s made of heroin. Yeah, that’s it, sweet, sweet heroin.
Please, lady, DON’T strike a blow for me. You and your ilk have done enough damage, thank you very much.
I’m just surprised her ‘husband’ (read – servant) hasn’t put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger yet.
Probably doesn’t even have that much will power left any more
Part of me wants to see the man’s reply article on MSNBC, “My wife is a mean bitch who spends no time with our children because she’s writing hate-filled articles on MSNBC”. Yeah, like we’ll see that one.
Part of me wonders if this man forgot a birthday or anniversary, and this is payback.
Part of me wonders if divorce proceedings are imminent.
And that last part of me questions another part of me and asks, “Hey, are you completely sure about this dating thing again?”
Liberated men, who seem to be able to function perfectly well in the big, bad world without having a live-in harpy/mom, have a word for women like this. I can’t think of this word off the top of my head, but if I remember correctly, it rhymes with “runts”.
Leslie Bennetts’ husband needs to grow a pair.
(and, seriously, what else can we expect from the woman who wrote ?)
Sounds an awful lot like verbal and mental abuse of her poor husband. I don’t know why he hasn’t told her to STFU and kiss his walking out the door ass. Oh yeah, and withholding naked fun time… Guess what lady, there’s a long line of women already not having sex with him. That does not work.
That article blows me away. Blows. Me. Away. God save us all from people like her.
Interestingly enough, John Hawkins is blogging about this very thing as we speak.
I don’t think I’ve ever met a woman that who deserved the title of “wirehaired man-goblin” more than Leslie Bennetts.
This proves definitively that you can judge a book by its cover. Or vice versa. Hideous is as hideous does, or something.
My question is, does she work full-time as well as take care of the house and kids? If so, then yeah, she should expect him to do half the chores. But if she’s a stay-at-home mom. What the he** does she think he’s doing 9 hours a day when he’s gone? Bowling? If he’s the breadwinner, then he should still do some things like fixing the cars and yardwork, but to expect parity in housework is insane.
Telling anyone “what you need to do ” is a nonstarter. This type of dialog only creates rebellion and assures that whatever needs doing will never be done by that person.
“our weekends begin with him enjoying a third cup of coffee over the morning newspapers while I rush around making breakfast, cleaning up the house, and organizing the children’s day”
Three words. Cereal. Clutter. Swingset. All three things taken care of. Now go have some coffee.
Have I told you lately that I love you? Damn, can you shred ’em. Happy birthday, Rachel!
Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend that I had. Notice the EX.
I guess what I want to know, as an unmarried man, is how prevalent this type of insanity is. Honestly, it DOES make me less likely to marry when I read something like this.
Okay, NOW I get it! See, I thought marriage was about love and mutual respect and shared beliefs. But I was WRONG! It’s all about control!!!
Jamfish! Make me a sandwich!!
/sarc
I dont think this kind of insanity is prevalent except within a certain group of women. If you can avoid them, you can avoid this insanity.
Leslie Bennetts is an ex-wife in the making. What a miserable shrew. She will end up alone and bitter (like all militant feminists)- that is guaranteed.
You know what bothers me the most? The fact that she feels just fine writing about her husband in this manner. Did she consider how it might make her husband feel? Or their children? How humiliating for them all.
Jeremy, run far and run fast.
My ex-wife is a psychologist and was not nearly as bad as is this gal. She is either a mysandrist or needs some Cherokee Hair. (South Park ref. Look it up). We’ll check her column again in 28 days or so.
John M. says
“My question is, does she work full-time as well as take care of the house and kids?”
Yes. The second graf of the MSNBC article says
“Like my husband and me, our upstairs neighbors during those years, Amy and Nick, were both working journalists with complicated schedules…”
Two words come to mind after reading this article.
Perpetual Victimhood.
It’s the raison d’etre the author is espousing such cruel behavior. And yes, the husband needs to grow a pair and realize that he could do better than this wench.
I married my best friend, she is the same person now that she was when we were dating. If she is crazy when you are dating her, she won’t become sane when she has a ring on her finger.
Seriously, before you even think about marriage the big question you should ask isn’t “Do I love her” but it should be “Is she my best friend” and “Does she drive me crazy” because none of that will change after the wedding is over.
Oh, and this psycho woman probably shouldn’t have kids at all. Her son will probably be in therapy for the rest of his life
And, it is the reason why I tell every young man I can, for the last decade or so, there is no reason to get married. It has absolutely NO benefit for you. And, if you have kids and get divorced, the family court is far less likely to give you any kind of equitable custody IF you had been married to the mother of the kids. The court is FAR more likely to give a man better cusdody rights if they think it will “keep him around.” And, a guy who married the mother shows he has some kind of responsibility and commitment, so there fore he takes it up the ass by the court and gets LESS custody rights.
And, frankly, most of the things that women complain about at home can be taken care of by a domestic service. It’s cheaper and if you don’t like the way things are done, fire them and hire another company. No divorce. No attorneys. No complaining. No whining. No witholding of sex. No balls pulled through your wallet. No deals. Just straight pay-to-play for a cleaning service. It’s like legalized prostitution of the dust mop. But, no one needs to have a VD test. Wonderful!
And, who the hell cares if the toilet gets scrubbed every week or two or once a month? Just how many people are using your bathroom, anyway? The less using it, the less cleaning it needs. Once a month is fine.
You want dishes done? get an automatic dishwasher. Clothes? Buy Permanent press clothes, wash everything on cold with color fast bleach (like Clorox II) and dry on perm press. It’s just that easy. nothing like a washer and dryer. Liquid soap. Clorox II. Fabric softener. Wash several small loads during the week, when you’re home at night. Hang up the duds as soon as the washer buzzes or rings. You’re done.
And, peace and quiet and sanity belong to you. The woman you married is not morphed into some mother-queen you don’t recognize, who insists on being more of a “mother” to you than your real mother was. Well, maybe I should say the woman you married starts acting like a “muthuh.” That’s probably more accurate.
Can we start a betting pool for how many women this shrew’s husband is banging behind her back? Seriously, I view cheating on your spouse/significant other to be one of the most despicable acts a person can engage in, but if this guy is giving it to his secretary, I’ll stand up and cheer.
Threats are also effective, as long as everyone knows you mean business.
I’m pretty sure men get restraining orders slapped on them for making threats.
This ball-busting harpy personifies the decades of subtle and not so subtle erosion of men as fathers, husbands, brothers, sons, friends and providers. Jeremy needs to man up and tell her to STFU and join him in a cup of coffee. Stop worrying about clutter. Stop keeping score about every little fucking thing that he does “wrong.” Stop overscheduling her and her kids. And what about the kids? Are they happy witnessing the daily evisceration of their Dad by the alpha female? Yeesh!
Not just in the making. Jeremy is her SECOND husband.
I can’t imagine why…
Which isn’t to say that if she’s sane when you’re dating her she won’t become crazy when she has a ring on her finger. : )
I’m in. Hmmmm…I’m going to go with 5 per year – assuming he’s gotten pretty good at slipping his leash. His aptitude has likely increased with her rapid deployment of “nasty tactics”.
DearRachel,
I cannot help but notice, as I read this article and the posted comments, that over on the right side of the page are scrolled what appear to be adds on how to meet women.
Somehow the Blogads software has determined that men who have just read a screed guaranteed to make them fear women will want to meet more of them.
I do have to say, however, that if I could be badgered by Your Imperial Awesomeness, I would jump right into that lake. Yesiree.
v/r
mike
Any woman who withholds sex to get her man to do something is really a prostitute.
My great aunt used to deny my uncle to get him to assist in the building her HER church (He was a plumber). My Grandpa told her this made her a prostitute. She about had a cow. But seriously, think about it. He’s right.
Good God! It’s hard for me to read that crap. This woman has some serious issues.
Perhaps the worst part of this is that this guy is “trapped” in this marriage if he wants to see his kids on a regular basis. If he were to divorce her, the author of this piece (how apropos) sounds just like the type of psycho-bitch that would “remind” the children of exactly where daddy “touched them” last weekend when they were speaking to the judge in divorce court.
Her advice seems to be nothing more than “he’s miserable therefore I’m happy.” If you treated a dog this way the cops would cite you for animal cruelty.
It’s amazing to me how some people are so willing to mis-treat others and call it “empowerment.” Sooner or later he’s going to walk.
$50 on “seven”.
It would certainly explain why he’s too tired to help out around the house.
The least attractive, most infuriating thing a wife could possibly do is show this sort of public contempt for her husband. This man is a saint for not leaving her, I swear–authoritarian nagging and bitching aside, this sort of shameless public insult of the most self-sacrificing man I’ve ever read about is just too much.
Can I use this as a chance to pitch the advantages of the crazy Christian conservative traditional (3 evil words…) approach to marriage? No fights or power struggles, since the Bible puts the guy in charge. The woman uses requests for help as if it was needed, which is the most attractive way to approach a man and the most likely to succeed anyway. Both parties work things out without bothering to threaten to leave, since they’re not allowed to (divorce is a sin, you know). The woman’s in charge of the home–also spelled out in the NT–and the fellow’s in charge of breadwinning, so there’s no bickering about who’s paying for what or who’s doing what chores, and each can appreciate anything the other contributes toward helping the other’s role (i.e. man’s more appreciative of woman’s financial contribution to the family because that’s “not her job,” and lady’s more appreciate of the man’s help around the house, because that’s “not his job”).
Now, I understand that has its drawbacks from an egalitarian point of view (different responsibilities are inherently unequal responsibilities, and, well, if the wife’s supposed to obey her husband she’s obviously oppressed from a secular perspective). But surely you can see it has the advantage of not leading to the sort of misery this woman’s husband experiences every day, and the sort of contempt she has for him. No? Comments welcome.
(Full disclosure: I’m a Christian, and my relatively new marriage works along this model, albeit imperfectly.)
Leslie Bennetts is the author of “The Feminine Mistake” and has been a contributing editor at Vanity Fair since 1988, writing on subjects that have ranged from movie stars to U.S. terrorism policy.
Hmmm…I was wondering what she writes with regard to U.S. terrorism policy so I went to her bio page on the Huffington Post. I didn’t find an answer, nor do I think I need one (I can guess), but I did find the name of the lucky dude…
Bennetts has also written for many other magazines, including Town & Country, Columbia Journalism Review, New York Magazine, Vogue, Good Housekeeping, Ladies Home Journal, More, House & Garden, Worth, Family Life, Parents, Child, Parenting, The Nation, Women’s Day, Tango, Modern Bride, and Women’s Health. She lives in Manhattan with her husband, journalist Jeremy Gerard, and their two children.
Aside from letting the sink fill up with dirty dishes until his mommy-wife tells him it’s time to stop reading the sports section, Jeremy Gerard also…wait for it…has a where he talks about, among other things, his wife’s book.
That must be a helluva book. It needs two HuffPo columnists to talk it up. And that must be just one helluva national debate they’re wanting us to have, about how much help men and women should put out mopping the floors and doing the laundry.
Wouldn’t it be so much simpler to keep your private matters private? And just, y’know, make sure the garbage cans are emptied out before your wife gets home so she doesn’t get so cranky?
Crikey. While the author is certainly a man-hating piece of shit, I reserve special contempt for the loser who submits to this type of soul-scourging. I understand that there are children involved, and God knows I couldn’t quit my kids on a bet, but I’ll bet that this spineless weasel knew going in that he be his wife’s whipping boy. And he married her anyway.
We’re not talking alpha male versus beta male. Leslie Bennetts shopped around and found an omega male, or maybe zeta male.
I also think that the phenomenons she admits in her article to not understanding have to do with what these guys want. These men would be happy if their wives quit their jobs or worked half-time. What these guys want is to work hard, be respected as a breadwinner, and have peace (read: not this woman) in their house. That’s more important to them than her 5-6 figure salary, I’ll bet you anything. These women she’s discussing voluntarily take on extra responsibilities, then can’t understand why their husbands don’t volunteer to take on half of sum total. Meh? Just spitballing here.
For those of you who are not religious like Joe Bingham (this is NOT a criticism of your approach or religiosity, Joe), an alternative approach is to treat a marriage as a team effort.
Any of you who have ever been part of a team or played a team sport, you know there are personality differences, etc. But, to “win” (and winning is part of the “game of life”) as a team, it takes submerging one’s ego for awhile, in order to insure that the “team” (or family) succeeds. Then, you can go back to being your regular ol’ egocentric self, pursuing your own personal goals. Until the next time the team needs something.
As humans, any of you should be able to switch back and forth quickly, easily and with transparency. If not, then you need practice. Like playing any sport, practice makes perfect. Or very close to it.
Haha the story’s getting an average 2/5 rating by readers. Good sign.
I would disagree with armyofdog on one thing: If he doesn’t have enough guts to stand up to her, he doesn’t have the motivation to go to someone else. He just figures it’s not worth the trouble.
And, lest you think that I regard infidelity as a noble recourse in a situation such as this, I’ll tell you what I told my son (you can probably guess his name) on the subject:
“Son, every man goes into marriage with the idea and hope that he’ll remain faithful. But every man comes to a point where they actually have to make a decision on what kind of man they’re going to be. Each has his own motivation, but for me it boiled down to this: If there’s a woman out there who’s worth it, with whom the sex is so fantastic as to make it worthwhile to lose my family, lose my house, have some other guy tucking my kids in at night, getting them to call him Daddy, sleeping with my wife, and having me pay him for the priviledge, I have not met that woman.”
Sounds to me like this guy either made a bad decision and has decided to live with it for the time being, or he likes being bossed around and never having to make decisions for himself.
Well, it is good to hear that this type of insanity isn’t very common. I guess after being in the dating pool for this long and finding much to dislike including attempts at control and manipulation, I’m a bit jaded.
Then all my worst fears get confirmed by some psycho. Nice.
I also wonder what would happen if a man wrote a piece like this but reversed.
Good point DonBodell. I am currently doing the laundry while the wife is in school because it needs to be done, not because of some kind of deal we made.
You do what you have to so that things will work and if that means doing something you don’t like every once in a while to make sure that things stay on track, then you do it.
Moron Pundit, if a guy wrote this you would see it all over MSM and the feminists would be demanding an apology while Code Pink marched up and down outside his apartment
I’m betting it’s a whole lot more than 5. This woman and others like her keep entire armies of prostitutes working year-round. I’d bet he’s got at least one regular on the side and rolodex full of hefty blond hookers who are willing to role play “Jeremy and his obedient little slut.”
$10 on Zero. He obviously lacks the required testosterone. If he had it, he’d be an EX-husband.
Men marry women expecting them to stay the same. Women marry men expecting them to change. Both are generally mistaken.
I think you’ll find that there are a great number of men who lack the courage to stand up to their wives, but will readily expend the effort to find another woman. Yes it’s risky and there are certainly dire consequences, but the men who wind up in these marriages haven’t exactly displayed the best decision-making skills.
I once worked with a lady who was an immigrant from Russia. I was very interested in her politics, what communism was like, that sort of thing and she told me something that has stuck with me ever since. She said “People deserve their leaders”. Simple, yet profound. How it applies to this lady’s husband… He’s getting exactly what he deserves and I don’t feel the least bit sorry for him. Maybe some day he’ll find his balls in his wife’s purse when she tells him to get her lipstick out if it for her. Unfortunately, the real victims of all this are the two kids.
I believe that “ball-busting hyena she-bitch” is the technical term. He probably is only with her because he doesn’t want to lose his kids. She should be SHOT. She’s an abusive wife, and there’s no other word for it. Behavior like that, from a man, would be grounds for a divorce that would put his junk under a steamroller.
By the way, anyone else read the whole article notice those statistics about income? About how women earn more than men in 1/3 of households? I wonder if she believes in the whole 30% less thing….
DonBodell,
We might both agree with the formulation that a marriage only works if both parties make an effort at being self-sacrificing.
If both people are trying to get the ratio to 50-50 on everything all the time, they’ll be unhappy, because it’ll never be there. If they can both try to give more than they get, they’ll get a lot more satisfaction. The minute you start thinking of yourself as a martyr… you’re screwed. Like this lady.
Re: people who wonder why he’s with her. Maybe for the kids?
And happy birthday, Rachel. I’ll at least use your Amazon link today.
Turns out if a man wrote something like that,
I recognized the name Leslie Bennetts from Isaac Asimov’s autobiography. (She is a cousin of Asimov’s widow, Janet Jeppson.) So I looked to see what he wrote about her.
The book confirms that she and her first husband, Bill Boggs, split up in 1971. By Christmas 1976, Bennetts was engaged to a man named George, but Asimov notes that “the engagement broke up eventually”.
I wouldn’t dream of speculating on why those relationships didn’t work out.
In any event, she is now married to Jeremy Gerard, and they have two children, Emily and Nick. shows the whole family. Judging by Emily and Nick’s facial expressions, they are enjoying life in the middle of a gender war about as much as I would.
Yeah, Joe, the 50-50 formula can easily have someone whining they get the 80 percent of the 50-50 split. Also, men do things that are “not reported.” Meaning they may actually think to pick up that bottle of wine, some steaks for the BBQ, do the lawn work, trim the hedges, take the car in for repair or change the oil themselves, paint the fence, fix sprinklers . . . shall I keep going? None of these things are as “memorable” or “romantic” as doing dishes, washing or ironing/steaming clothes (yes, I said “steaming” clothes–look up a company called Jiffy in Tennessee that makes the hand held commercial steamers that clothing stores use–you can buy one from them for 200 bucks or less) and, the VERY memorable and romantic “cleaning toilets.”
Point is,there are always things to do at home, never enough time to do it and maybe it’s time for all parties to get together and make a family “team” list of what needs to get done, and who can pick up the slack when a family member is ill or not at home (as in away on a trip or something).
OH, and might I add that the family I grew up in did this. No, we didn’t get paid for doing family jobs (as in an allowance). I’ve got nothing against it, but the family saw family duties and responsibilities as things that needed to get done without pay. Pay was something you traded your labor for OUTSIDE the family.
If another model works for your family, use it. Guilt can work. Money can work. Reward other than money can work. And, of course, the always popular trade-off (if we get this and this and this done, we can go to the . . . fill in the blank with beach, fair, carnival, movies, etc.).
He must have been hitting that when it was about 50 pounds lighter and a lot prettier. I hate to be stereotypical (okay, really I don’t) but why is it that the women that bitch the most about men are ugly and fat?
Perfect. She’s fat, too. Thanks for the link to the pic. Withhold sex? Oh darn.
After looking at that picture, and knowing that he’s a good liberal, I’m now thinking that his response to her threats to withhold happynakedtime is the same as his view on taxes:
More withholding, please, and start now.
The way I see it, if her husband ever beats the ever lovin shit out of her, he’s now got a paper trail to argue that he was so abused and mentally tortured by her that it was all done under duress. What man couldn’t sympathize with a guy who has to stay with a woman like this for the sake of his son? I think the dude deserves a medal for not clubbing her into a Terri Schiavo look-alike with a golf club over this behavior.
In his account of their first meeting, Asimov writes: “Leslie was twenty-one years old, tall, blond, beautiful, zaftig, and intelligent. Janet had described her to me as beautiful, and she was right.” But that was 38 years ago.
I can second this, and vouch for its success. Pitch in, do some work. If you both notice that something isn’t getting done, discuss it together and see why. I know, for my wife, clutter bothers her – so, while I’m not always successful, I try to help reduce clutter. It only takes a few minutes to get things relocated to their proper homes, and it helps her relax.
Scorekeeping is for the court or the field, not the marriage.
Ah, and by the way, Instinct, since many of us old pharts (I don’t use the “f” for the same reason “fat” is now “phat”) who served in the military (at that time when anybody who was anybody or nobody was in the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines . . . you can include the Coasties, too) needed to have some kind of knowledge about taking care of their military clothes and make them look good enough to pass inspection and NOT get any Article 15’s.
But, one hardly needs to do 4 years or more in the military to learn to do laundry, dishes, etc., esp. with all the wonderful automagic machines we’ve had for the last 50 or more years!
Remember, these were considered labor saving devices. Primarily for wives/women, in the days when most women didn’t work outside the home or worked only part time. But, these fine devices hardly need a woman’s touch to start them, clean them, load and unload them (kinda like giant guns!) and wipe them down, like cleaning the car!
Friend of mine sent me this funny that I thought everyone here could appreciate. I couldn’t find it on the web so I posted it on my .
Oh, and as far as FAIR and relationships go, there is no such thing. FAIR is a place where you ride on carnival rides, eat cotton candy and throw up.
Yea, DonBodell, I did seven myself. Mom taught me to sew a button and a patch too.
Oh, and I don’t see laundry, toilet cleaning, dish cleaning, lawn mowing, fence painting, car washing, cooking, shopping (food/clothes/etc) as being “self-sacrificing.”
IF these are things you have to do when you’re single and living alone (guess whaaaat! YOU DO!!!!), then either you’re self sacrificing for yourself (man, if THAT ain’t the ultimate in egocentric!), or they are simply jobs/duties/tasks that need to get done. That is all. So, divide up the work and get the jobs done.
It’s always possible to use the Maoist and Leninist-Stalinist model of trading off tasks between family members, just so everyone gets to see what the others do. Like making doctors and lawyers till the fields for a season. Husband gets to clean the toilets. Wife gets to mow the lawn. Kids? Well, you’re screwed! You get to LEARN IT ALL!!! Then again, that’s how you know HOW to do it all! And, what you want to duck!
OH, and might I add that the farmers NEVER got to perform medical operations under that Maoist/Leninist-Stalinist model. Not that it saved any lives, mind you.
Good grief. After looking at this woman’s picture, I have even less respect for her nad-less husband than I did before. It’s one thing to get henpecked by Catherine Zeta-Jones. It’s quite another to get picked on, abused and publicy humiliated by the likes of that beast.
I can not imagine the series of stimuli and neuron responses that would have to take place in one’s brain for any one to consider the withholding of sex by this woman as anything but a blessed reprieve.
THE DUNKING CHAIR
In the old, old days, Mizz Bennett would have been labeled a “common scold,” and be placed — strapped in — a chair at the end of a see-saw over the village pond, and dunked repeatedly.
Yeeeesh, I just looked at that photo. I think I need to bleach my eyes.
Roderick, I don’t think the dunking chair could hold that load
Hi Rachl, Finally coming out of lurker limbo to wish you a very Happy Birthday. I read your intelligent enjoyable, informative, dog loving blog every day. Don’t feel bad about turning 36, it was one of my best years!
Oh and Leslie Bennetts is an asshat. I hope her husband grows some balls one day and realizes he can do a lot better than her. If I treated my husband like that he would have walked a long time ago.
Radical Feminism is Rampant in the West, but….
Islam is ALSO rapidly spreading in the West. You know, the religion that actually DOES oppress women? Honor killings in London are now routine, and are soon coming to America.
The two CANNOT simultaneously co-exist. They will clash.
Muslims have high birth rates. Feminists have low birth rates, and depend on converting young women to their cause (greater success at this depresses the birth rate further).
The fertile, multiplying group uses violence – the infertile, non-reproducing group uses the media and courts.
Guess which group wins given that scenario?
Thus, the existence of Feminism is the litmus test that Islam has not yet made inroads into America. When Islam actually does, feminism will vanish in a flash, as the former feminists beg the strong men of the military and police to defend them.
Thus, I see feminism as a luxury of a society that still has not come under any influence of Islam. I see the increase of Islam in the west to be 99% negative, but 1% positive, in that it will swiftly put an end to militant feminism.
Observe, closely, how feminism changes as Islam becomes a bigger presence. If feminism DOESN’t change, that simply means Islam is not growing (also good).
And, you know, (I hope I don’t offend someone over this comment, but) pillows with embroidered likenesses of little ankle-biter type dogs on them makes me want to punch someone.
Just to be clear:
Pictures of big dogs = good (double + good if they are in hats/costumes etc.)
Pillows embroidered with pictures of precious little dogs = stomach cramps
Ah, yes, Happy Birthday.
I’d leave a longer comment, but my wife of 30+ years has just given me this list….
Is it just me, or are articles like this becoming more common? Probably just me…
But, if we can say nothing else about this election, it sure has shined a flashlight into the cockroach-infested recesses of the left – from the rabid, anti-American racism of Jeremiah Wright to Feminazis getting more bold in their man-hate. Hopefully, the normal people in this country are getting a good view of just how close to the mainstream left the Kos kids are.
That can only benefit the country in the long run, I think.
I’ll bet $100 on one or maybe 2 other women, but only one affair at a time. If he’s doing prostitutes and not affairs (I know its a thin distinction) then he’s got HUGH string of them.
This poor slob is a IMHO. He’s conditioned for whatever reason to defer hugely to his shrew of a wife for 38 years. He lacks any general self assertiveness in regards to her. His affairs are most likely have a similar dynamic. If he’s got prostitutes then he’s probably acting out being in control in a fantasy type of thing. He may genuinely not have ANY other women involved, but may be acting out porn addictions or who knows what else, or just plain likes being bossed around,all of which is just semi-wild ass guesses.
In any case if she’s controlling him in such a fashion as she describes in the article, this guy needs to Man the F’k Up and change something. She may be to blame for the situation, but he’s the responsible one for his life. Personally, I’d choose freedom and living with integrity with the headaches of a divorce, including all the custody battles, alimony support payments, vs living dead and selling my honor to the nearest whore.
I’m of the blog-cycle on this…
Here is a talk radio letter writer’s answer to this woman:
I’ve never been married, but I’ve observed plenty and have come to a conclusion: women are much bitchier than men about almost everything. And I can say that because I’m female.
My dad is the kind of guy that does anything to help out his wife. For years he was the breadwinner and did housework while trying to keep kids in line because my mother was ill. Frankly, my dad may not be perfect, but he rocks.
I’ve come to the conclusion that many women seem to think that whatever their husbands/boyfriends have an interest in is not important. Seriously, how often do women go to movies just because their significant other wants to see it? You see guys in chick-flicks all the time, even if they really don’t want to be there. I have an incredibly hard time talking to women because most of them can’t understand my own affinity for what are typically male interests (computers, video games, electronics, action movies, fantasy/scifi books). I can’t imagine being married to somebody who kept cutting into my hobby time because they consider it to be a waste of time.
Granted, some people spend too much time with their own interests and not enough with their significant other, but I’m just going to put out there that it is equally appalling when one or both people in the relationship very openly denigrate the hobbies and interests of the other. Everybody needs time to do what they enjoy doing.
As for this woman, she really, really needs some psychological help. And her husband needs to grow a set.
Oh God-DAMN, what a cupid stunt this bitch is.
Yup, I’d bet this guy has a secret hotmail account to connect to his extra-marital action. Them’s hookers has bills to pay too. (Note to oppressed men: Google ‘ESCORT’ and your city name, just for fun).
And sadly, his sich is not unique. My lovely and delightful wife and I have run into this type of couple more than once. It really gets fun when the wife decides to cast her ‘aura of power’ over me and try to bitch me into doing something. The response “You’re fucking that other guy, remember?” seems to take care of them.
My wife told me that I was being mean, but the reality is that she can pull stunts that no other woman can because she’s my wife (and great in the sack). If some other female wants to push me around, they need to 1: Get my wife’s permission. 2: Do me. Since no one else has gotten past point #2 (my wife would probably rent me out for kicks), it’s not a problem.
And leaving his two boys in the claws of that ball buster has got to be too much for that man to think of. I hope that she gets served with divorce papers as soon as the youngest turns 18.
In case you are wondering, my wife has never had to take the car into the shop, or wash it, and has no idea how to start the lawn mower, vacuum cleaner, or unstop a drain or toilet. The garbage is taken out damn near daily, and the maid service comes weekly.
Men are simple. Food, Sex, and a great attitude will get you ANYTHING. Withhold those, and you better start worrying about contracting STDs, even if you are married.
Gawd, doing her would be like banging Jabba the Hut.
Hey, Happy Birthday Rachel!
Thanks for the link, Rachel. I wrote it and even I was surprised how terrible it sounded at the end.
Gee, I must have been married to this woman’s sister.
Oh, that was obvious fairly early on — but not until the first child was born. (Some sort of pregnancy-linked insanity seems to run in the ex’s family.) And then …
Or wants them to spend some time with a non-crazy role model. I had to wait until she got crazy enough to walk out herself. She made all sorts of accusations, but she was crazy enough about it that all of them were provably false (whew!). And I got half-time custody, which was as good as I could realistically get.
I would have chewed off my own leg to escape, but it didn’t seem right to chew off the kids’ legs, too …
I always thought vouchers-redeemable-at-a-divorce- lawyer would be a great wedding present for people like those two.
Yeah, my first wife was like that.
Thank God I didn’t have kids or buy real estate with her.
I pitty the poor guy that’s with her now (#4, IIRC)
I just want to know where she keeps his balls.
Rachel, I appreciate your general sentiment here, but the effort is probably futile.
There are simply far too many out there who share Ms. Bennett’s attitude for anyone my age (mid-20’s) to hope for timely change. For those men who actually have any sort of intelligent standards, searching for a wife these days usually entails years of sifting through women in search of someone as rational as yourself.
It’s basically the same story among all of my male friends – if we don’t find a woman worth marrying, then we simply won’t do it. If we die bachelors, at least it’s better than being nagged into the grave.
If men piss Ms. Bennett off so much, why the hell did she marry one?
Oh, what the heck:
Jeremy, here are your options. You can bear it or cheat. Both options will take a toll on your self respect. You can divorce and lose your kids. You can slap her around and get arrested. You can threaten to hit her where it hurts by starting a blog about how it is living with her. The last option is the only palatable one.
Why all the fuss?
Keith Olberman and I agree with every word of the article. We had to pass Leslie Bennetts’ test to get hired.
Now that there is funny!
“And while I still have to mastermind the operation — somehow he is never the one who remembers that our son needs new mosquito netting, baseball cleats, and basketball shoes for sleepaway camp…”
Obviously, she chose her husband poorly or, perhaps more likely, he was the only gutless wonder who would have her. Any real man might shirk from planning Little Miss Princess birthday parties for 35 shrieking adolescent girls, but surely he’s up for buying camping and sporting supplies for The Boy.
Furthermore, what sort of boy attents “sleepaway” camp. Is it a camp for children with sleeping disorders or is it just an attempt to subtly feminize something as cool and manly as Camp?
The thing is, this guy may have started out as a fully functional person, capable of taking care of himeself, but the fact is a lot of guys are lazy, and it was just easier to go along with her than to fight it, so he did. Now he has no nuts and a shite marriage.
Men and women work differently around the house – I like to power through the chores like a maniac and then flop out on the couch and watch a movie. The wife kind of putters around, doing her chores, checking the net, talking on the phone, doing some laundry. She doesn’t mind that she’s constantly doing some low-level work, whereas I want a goal, a plan and then to be done, at least for a while. I think it took a little while to realize that we just work differently, so we try to split up the chores so that we are doing tasks that appeal to our way of doing things – frankly she does more around the house and I work longer at the office – I think it’s a fair trade. If we both worked my hours, we’d have more $$ and probably outsource more of the chores.
There are some other options to consider. I’m guessing everybody here is pretty well-adjusted based on the slant of the comments. These two could both be maladjusted, and for that reason they ‘clicked’ with each other.
I’d bet he hasn’t had any affairs. I can think of 3 reasons off the top of my head that he didn’t leave long ago — before they had children — he’s also a martyr, he has such low self-esteem that he doesn’t think he deserves any better, or he’s a masochist.
Y’all are trying to apply healthy reasons to unhealthy behavior.
“. . .us old pharts (I don’t use the “f” for the same reason “fat” is now “phat”). . . .”
What, ‘Pretty Hot And Really Tasty, SIR!’?
Oh, :
Leslie Bennetts
Should cool her jets
A husband or wife does not keep score
Because it turns them into a competitor.
We all seem to agree that Bennetts’ attitude totally sucks. It’s not a position of power, but a position of whine.
But… let’s pretend that her husband really is the way she describes. Lazy, forgetful, doesn’t pull his own weight. Let’s not pretend men like this don’t exist – because we all know they do. Heck, women like this exist too. I know of several of both sexes!
So, what is a person to do when they marry a lazy person who cannot function without someone telling them what to do? Leave them? Just deal?
I think Rachel should have a “Dear Rachel” column.
Dear Rachel,
I have married a good for nothing irresponsible lout. And had his babies. What am I to do?
Um…I’d like to hear some more about successful strategies to use in order to get my wife to lick my balls.
Thanks in advance. From the bottom of my…nutsack.
Letalis, two words:
Shave ’em.
Not sure if anyone mentioned this but after seeing her picture, I can tell you why her husband does whatever he is told; She will body-slam his ass!
This is Rachel at her best. Hilarious and right on target.
I think I like your examinations of relationship issues better than any other subject. Women mistreating men, or men mistreating women – you always get it right.
Happy Birthday, Rache! I’m hitting the tip jar!
I was gonna wait a little longer to say it, but gd hit the nail. This “poor bastard” may be a masochist who actively enjoys the bullyragging she gives him. Is ecstatic to be used as a punching bag. Etc.
In which case I hope for the kids’ sake that neither tendency is genetic.
Oh yeah, HAPPY BIRTHDAY RACHEL! I have an April birthday too. I’m not going to give you a hard time for being over 30, because I’m way older than you.
See the top image. Save a thousand words.
There are worse. The kind that will make agreements on how to divvy up the efforts – you do as promised – she declines – no reason given.
Wow… just… wow.
As much as I’d love to jump on the misogynistic blame game here, I’ll point out that I’ve yet to meet a single woman that changed upon getting married.
Serious.
I’ll tell you what does change, though – the man’s perception of her. Take that letter that Steve Sky linked to. The writing was already on the wall; he didn’t care whether she was an interesting person or not. All the writer noticed was that she was absolutely amazing in bed, as if that was all that was necessary from a wife. Suddenly, the sex disappeared. Guess what? He suddenly discovered that, whoops, he’s with a selfish idiotic lout.
In my admittedly limited experience, women that are like Ms. Bennetts are like that long before they get married. They just might have other benefits that, in the short term, make up for it – perhaps they’re amazing in bed, perhaps they look absolutely amazing in a little black dress. In the end, though, those benefits disappear, and all that’s left is the woman’s toxic personality.
As someone else pointed out earlier, is she your best friend or does she drive you crazy? If she’s driving you crazy, that’s not a good thing. That’s not by design. It’s a sign that she’s going to drive you crazy long after the sex and looks that make it all worthwhile disappear. If she’s your best friend, on the other hand, even if the looks and sex disappear, you’ll at least have a good friend by your side. Three guesses which way you should go.
Whoa -I’ve been working like mad and am catching up on posts, so sorry if this has already been suggested – don’t have time to read all 99 comments. I just want to say I think Rachel should start a new show called ‘Bitch Whisperer’. By the time she gets done with women like that, they will not only be in a state of calm submission, but also pretty well bloodied up, I’d warrant. Yeah, I’d watch that.
Umm, yea. Having been married to a woman that subscribed to the Bennetts method. I can tell you from experience 2 things:
1) It wouldn’t matter if this guy did everything and she never had to lift a finger around the house, nothing is EVER good enough for this type. She’d be doing the screeching harpy routine about something.
2) Women like this hate men, it’s a form of bigotry so intrinsic and entrenched that they can’t even see that it’s wrong.
Here’s my rules on household chores:
1) If you see it needs doing, do it.
2) Naps are more important than chores.
Now I understand why my house is so filthy.
I hate cleaning, and there is no one to force/humiliate me into doing it.
And the cats are no help at all.
“But… let’s pretend that her husband really is the way she describes. Lazy, forgetful, doesn’t pull his own weight. Let’s not pretend men like this don’t exist – because we all know they do. Heck, women like this exist too. I know of several of both sexes!”
Either:
1) She knowingly married a lazy slop – then she’s an idiot.
or
2) She married a decent guy and then proceeded to suck the life out of him, probably by nagging and managing every facet of his life, to the point where he forgot how to be self-motivating and making decisions for himselfl. If that is the case, then it’s pretty much her fault.
I had the distinct… responsibility of being on the receiving end of one of these rants, not too long ago. A female friend of mine has gotten to the point where she can’t go a single conversation with me without criticizing her husband. And yeah, I called her on it. Poo happens, and yeah, I can see she’s frustrated. I sympathize. But jeez, she’s been married almost 10 yrs now, and I never hear a single positive word about the guy, poor man.
That being said– for you guys in the group, is there any way for a woman to reassure her guy that she has no plans to chop off her hair or trade her little black dress for elastic-waist “mommy” jeans?
My ex used to do that sort of thing…regardless of what she actually said, it’d be the tone that you had to watch out for.
Granted, I can be a lazy bastard sometimes. And amazingly obtuse. But I’d rather be with someone who was my best friend and who didn’t mind hitting me over the head with something (preferably lightweight) and saying “Rob…you know those shelves you were going to put up? Well, this century please, you hairy moron.” than someone who insisted on being unfailingly polite, but with The Tone.
The Look was even worse though *shudders*.
Hmmm.
This is the first Blog entry I’ve ever commented on. Programmer since early 90’s, but, Feh, write it (not socialize with it so much). Tired of it when I’m off work. Pays the bills.
Men and women work and play(if your lucky, they are both, Edison). They don’t make list of things to do. Among my family, household stuff seems to get sort itself out. Man BBQs, wife makes desert, stuff gets worked out, cleaning and ect. — An intuitive balance. Odds are high, after reading her article, she is making list for the sake of making list. I mean, barring taking care, feeding, maintaining the children, and household I suspect after reading her article that it is “make work” of her on doing. Polishing silver for guest? My friends would say, “Is this Silver? Why do you have this out?”
Some of the other post indicate he should leave her, but there are the children. And, if not them there may be financial issues.
Men do have honor, honor to ones children and wife more than anything. He may be taking a beating, but his honor holds him to his vows. I’m deep, mountain, Old South Georgian. Your word, especially in a marriage means something. Then again, maybe he is lazy. They may both be on opposite ends of the spectrum (how the hell they didn’t see that, I don’t know) Baa! There is both men and women alike who are such. Last time I checked, we still get along, and some times the toilet don’t need scrubbing right this second.
Hell of a thing the poor soul has to go through. Odds are low that he deserves it being made public like that.
“That being said– for you guys in the group, is there any way for a woman to reassure her guy that she has no plans to chop off her hair or trade her little black dress for elastic-waist ‘mommy’ jeans?”
First best resort is to just plain tell him. Say that you read something on the internet and then promise him you know better than that and won’t do those things. As a rule, we are emotionally direct and straightforward creatures who want to invest our trust and belief in you.
Extra credit example: get him to sit down somewhere and curl up on his lap with your arms around him beforehand. This will significantly increase the effect. Note however that it may instigate a good hard rooting, so timing and environment should be considered.
In her article, Bennetts suggests that the reason she divorced her first husband was because he expected her to wash and iron his clothes for him. So apparently her advice would be to leave him.
Personally, my advice would be to not marry such a man in the first place.
Agreed with Acksiom’s post above. Also, just DO it. Put on some makeup and look nice for no reason but because you want to look nice for him.
Heck, my wifes loves this black shirt I have so there are times when we go out I’ll shave up nice, put on a little cologne (something I do VERY rarely) and then put on clean jeans, the shirt, and my boots. She loves it.
I’ll get her flowers out of the blue and it makes her smile.
Do the same thing for your guy. Dress up for him, do little things that you know he likes, that’s all it takes. Oh, and be honest too ; )
Your man will let you wear absolutely anything you want if you let him touch your boobies. : )
That works too : )
This Bennetts woman is absolutely grotesque. What kind of weak lunatic would stay married to her after reading this article?
Children of such a union are to be deeply pitied.
That household must be hell-on-earth.
But if that guy should slip and, you know, somehow accidentally beat the crap out of her, and plead insanity and I were on the jury, he’d never be convicted.
Edit: I finally clicked over to look at that picture in the NY Times. I KNEW that weenie-ass husband would have a beard. Correct!
Leslie Bennetts is a feminine mistake.
Oh, God! My eyes! I looked at the link Pat Berry provided. I bet that double chin jiggles when she’s barking orders at poor Jeremy. Is Leslie a cousin of Jabba the Hutt?
Jabba the Hutt was her love child with Michael Moore
In the interest of educating my young son to prevent his being part of the patriarcy – I had him read the article. End result – “I never want to get married.” They learn so fast these days…… :)
One thing that a lot of women just can’t seem to grok is that men really and truly don’t care about a lot of things that women do. A household that strikes a woman as a hellhole of clutter and mess doesn’t bother a man at all, lots of times (I will allow for exceptions on both sides; my best-beloved’s place looks like mine—like what would happen if a hurricane hit a bookstore) and it drives her crazy that he doesn’t get up and do chores unless she’s shrieking at him.
That said, this ugly cow’d get bounced to the curb so fast she’d think the speed of light was rather slow and crippled, were she with me. I had to put up with years of abuse from a mentally-disturbed (head injury; longish story not really germane) mother, and I. Am. DONE!!! These days I live alone and mostly like it just fine.
Guys, I’m going through a divorce now after eighteen years of marriage to a bipolar woman who refuses to take her medication and who has heard the word “conscience” but has no idea what it means. Marriage to her was hell in every respect, though I won’t go into the details.
I did my best to love her and stay with her and help her through eighteen years, but ultimately drew the line as I realized that my children had gotten the idea that there must be nothing wrong with their mom’s behavior since Dad put up with it. Naturally as soon as I got serious about teaching them the basic facts of life vis-a-vis human relationships and stopped worrying that they would realize that the things I was telling them all honest and hard-working and respected grown-ups do, were things that their mother quite obviously couldn’t be bothered to do…
Well, their mom filed for divorce and told me her lawyer had assured her that if she accused me of sexual abuse the courts would let her keep all eight kids. And that’s the woman I spent all those years trying to find some way to live with.
So why did I?
Two reasons. 1. I had promised, “for better or for worse,” and even though it was obvious by the time the honeymoon ended that I had drawn “for worse” rather than “for better,” I felt obligated to keep my word. Just because somebody else doesn’t keep their promises to you, doesn’t mean you don’t want to be the kind of person who keeps his promises.
2. I didn’t want my kids to have to experience divorce; I chose to suffer myself rather than to make them suffer. Only, eventually I realized that I was doing them more damage by letting them think their mother’s methods of manipulation were moral and effective than I would do them by standing up to her and letting her divorce me if that’s what she chose to do.
I don’t know if that makes sense but those were my reasons for staying. In retrospect they were bad reasons; my kids would have been much better off if I had stood up for what was right from the beginning and just let her leave…except that my kids wouldn’t even exist, and that’s not a thought to be born, ’cause I love ’em more than I can say.
She is a real peach.
People like her make me physically sick. I am a widow who would give anything to cook dinner, clean the toilet or iron clothes again for my husband. I just don’t understand women who treat their husbands this way. Yes I sometimes got irritated by socks on the floor and dirty dishes in the sink, but in the grand scheme of life, who cares??? I would trade everything for nothing but his socks and dirty dishes if that meant we were together again.
Silly me, I always treated our marriage as a partnership and thought that just being together and in love was important. I guess I should have yelled, threatened him and withheld sex more to get him to buy the groceries. What a lost opportunity.
Wow. I once wrote a personal ad that included the sentence “I’m looking for a woman who likes everything I like exactly the way I like it.” I figured I would really get along with someone who appreciated the sarcasm. I get the feeling that this woman wouldn’t understand why people were laughing at it.
Men who have been married to women like her, have found their balls, divorced her, and then married again, make pretty great hubby’s though, they are already trained up, you don’t have to give them a list, they already know what to do, and are grateful for naked happy time. Just like women who were married to the “I told her twice, that’s why she has the two black eyes” men are great at their second marriages too, both partners are grateful and happy that their spouses are not their ex’s.
There is something to be said for ex’s. And once in awhile they aren’t cuss words.
Rachel-
I absolutely love laughing at these articles!
I’m a 44 yr old (never married) male– who has also never even had a “co-habitant” for more than 2 months at a time– (since age 19)…
Thus, I have always done 100% of the “household chores”.
My “bathrooms” and “kitchen” get 99% of my attention- meanwhile, I’m quite likely to set a “Guinness Book record” for the size of the ‘dust bunnies’ currently under my bed…
Not to mention that spiders will usually get 4-6 months to start a web behind my TV stand and bookshelves, and I am also very ‘casual’ about scraping the top layer of “dust” off my ‘end tables’.
Why am I really supposed to “care”? Am I merely trying to impress the next woman who won’t be sleeping with me?
It doesn’t mention how old the kids are. Why aren’t they helping with the chores?
Also, she does work at home, so yes, she should do MORE of the housework.
Unfortunately, reading this article has pulled to the front something that has been in the back of my mind and that is that I no longer want to be married to my wife (sigh..)
Your man will let you wear absolutely anything you want if you let him touch your boobies. : )
Yep. Including things not normally considered clothes, like whipped cream.
I have a good system that I use when my wife “asks” me to do something:
Wife: Do you want to run down and get some vegtables out of the freezer (or any other menial task that takes me away from what I am doing)?
Me: Apparently, I do.
It conveys just the right amount of contempt.
Rachel, RE:
If I recall correctly, wasn’t the crime of Adultery (when it was a crime) legally termed “Alienation of affection”?
I think it was. It’s some food for thought about what seed this woman is sowing.
i’m betting on 0, for now. this pansy has been completely neutered by this harpy. but one day a cute little secretary is going to catch his fancy and he will realize that he doesn’t have to go through life with his balls in a vice. then she gets to become the bitter ex-wife writing articles about what a prick her ex is ’cause he left her for a young bimbo. or maybe he won’t. maybe he’ll just stay and take it. i’m betting they deserve each other.
DearRachel,
1. I have yet to see one commentor who noted that the husband is the prototypical male liberal. (maybe I missed it). As such, EVERYTHING is the fault of the white male. So, to him, his wife’s position is not only sensible but justified. At the very least, he is paying for thousands of years of male oppression. He is not ball-less (any more than any other liberal) and he is not put-upon. He will not divorce her. He is content – somewhat akin to the masochist to her sadist.
2. Haven’t we heard a second for the “Dear Rachel” column somewhere up in that comment thread??
v/r
mike
Oh lord, I just saw of Leslie Bennetts that Pat Berry provided (couldn’t see it yesterday on my phone). Long gone are the days of “20, blond and beautiful”, as written by Asimov (though his more accurate use of “zaftig” was obviously the pre-cursor of “morbidly obese”). We’re talking ancient, forgotten history here. I would think withholding sex from her husband should count as a random act of kindness.
I think evvybuns summed it up perfectly:
“… eventually I realized that I was doing them more damage by letting them think their mother’s methods of manipulation were moral and effective than I would do them by standing up to her and letting her divorce me if that’s what she chose to do.”
Redneck, you can bet that if your wife was treating you so abusively, she was being rough with the kids too. You sound like a decent, honest man, and your kids are going to need you to be the sane one. Best of luck.
Oh yes – Leslie Bennetts is an evil cow.
Note to Jeremy: Kill the bitch. The amount of jail time you get will be less stressful than the divoirce, I promise. And if you do it right you’ll get to keep the cash. Hell, if you have HALF a brain, you’ll get away with it.
(the above was SARCASM, and not an actual directive)
Keeping score in marriage is a sure fire way to make sure that neither side ever gets past the superficial and sees what the other brings to the relationship. How could you when your free time is spent keeping track of the free time your spouse enjoyed today. Bottom line is you’re more worried about how you are going to get yours.
I work with a man (a boy in a mans body it seems) who spends more time on the phone getting his daily marching orders from his wife than working. She’s too lazy to get off her ass and go the the grocery, or the Wal-Mart or the local pizza parlor… you name it. He then spends the rest of the day crying on our shoulders about it. He is allowed to go away with his friends for long weekends a couple times a year to play golf so I guess it makes it okay? That’s his focus when he’s on the phone all day long adding to his to do list. I really enjoy golf, but a couple of weekend golf trips as my reward for eating a shit sandwich the rest of the year?? No – I’ll just pass on the sandwich.
My youngest brother married a petty ball buster who thinks its funny to order him around in front of his (our) family… gets her rocks off I guess. She actually timed how long it takes him to drive to and from work and brags that when he walks in the front door she hands off the 2 kids and heads to the local bar to have a glass of wine and read a book. She claims his free time is the 45 minutes (spent in rush hour traffic)each morning and again in the evening driving back and forth to work. She was a pain in the ass when he dated her and nothings changed.
No marriage is perfect – there are lots of challenges along the way. How does treating your spouse like a tote board help? Come on!!!
Oh and belated happy birthday Rachel! Rough up the dogs for me!!
WAAAAAAAAAIIITTTT a second…..so everyone who posted a comment on here seems to think it’s okay for a wife to do everything and the man to do nothing? Anytime a woman requests her husband’s help she’s a shrew? Come on! Let’s face it, most men aren’t pumped up about cleaning, cooking or fuck, even putting the toilet seat down to pee! My boyfriend moved in about a month ago and it’s been a battle to get him to do chores. I’ve pointed out to him that we both work full-time and it isn’t fair for me to do everything. It needs to be 50/50.
Tracey:
Let us know when he moves out.
Wow, yall are harsh!
Summary of advice:
1. tough cookies
2. don’t make mistakes
No wonder the divorce rate is high!
Kinda makes me sad (and glad I chose someone different!)
I love that photo. Mama B has her hand in the ventriloquist position on Papa no-spine. The daughter is in full “adore me or else” Princess pose.
The son is the only one looking at the camera and showing any sign of awareness, and he has that “yeah, pity me” look on his face that says he’s gonna bolt like a greyhound on meth the instant he’s old enough, and move as far away as possible.
And the cutesy dog throw pillows in the background. OMG. Kill me now.
Some years back, I knew a guy who was married to a bitter, obnoxious and belittling woman. They met in the Army, and got married, but she was just a bully. You know the type. Well, one day she comes home to an empty house , all he had left her was the dog and a note: I’m gone. I have all the money in the bank too. Enjoy your life. . Now here’s the funny part: she could not understand why he did such a cruel thing. She was so clueless about his feelings that I almost felt bad for her. She would yell, yes, yell at him in public and around friends, but he said nothing. Just kept it bottled up. Some guys are like that.
I don’t know if this has been pointed out yet because I didn’t read all the comments but, withholding nooky and affection is a losing proposition foro several reasons.
1) She doesn’t have control over ALL of it. and 2) If they do persevere for enough years it just won’t be an issue for him.
I wonder if his girlfriend is cute?
GOOD GRIEF.
I don’t know which makes me shudder more: reading that woman’s screed, or the realization that there are children in that family who’re learning from her example.
A better illustration of Proverbs 21:9 has never been seen.
Sadly, it’s probably not him who’s having an affair, but her. He apparently isn’t insisting on her treating him with any respect, and perhaps (though I’ll scarcely take her word for it) he doesn’t do much to merit respect. In my experience, that kind of “relational feedback loop” favors her being progressively less attached to the relationship as a result. She’ll probably stray first.
Regardless, if the woman’s attitude doesn’t undergo a radical transformation, hopefully she’ll do him the favor of dying in a car wreck, leaving him free to have his life rebuilt by marrying a more sweet-natured and affectionate woman ten years his junior.
It wouldn’t be cosmic justice, exactly, but it would redress some of the harm that poor man has endured.
“putting the toilet seat down to pee!”
I thought it was supposed to go up?
To alpha male : this man was really cruel to the dog. Bad bad bad.
A friend of mine went to marriage counseling with his wife, and one of her complaints was that he wasn’t doing his fair share of the housework. It was pretty much a case of different expectations, like whether it was really necessary to scrub the hardwood stairs and landing once a week. They are both consultants, with high hourly rates, and she was working part time and he was working full time, plus overtime. He didn’t really want to work overtime, but it was that cycle in the project, and it was necessary. The counselor suggested that since they’d said they didn’t really need all that overtime money, that my friend could use some of it to hire someone to take some of the cleaning chores. The wife had to admit that hubby had suggested that, but she wanted to see HIM scrubbing those stairs.
#134 Tracey:
Come on! Let’s face it, most men aren’t pumped up about cleaning, cooking or fuck, even putting the toilet seat down to pee! My boyfriend moved in about a month ago and it’s been a battle to get him to do chores. I’ve pointed out to him that we both work full-time and it isn’t fair for me to do everything. It needs to be 50/50.
#116 Technomad:
One thing that a lot of women just can’t seem to grok is that men really and truly don’t care about a lot of things that women do. A household that strikes a woman as a hellhole of clutter and mess doesn’t bother a man at all, lots of times … and it drives her crazy that he doesn’t get up and do chores unless she’s shrieking at him.
Tracey, pay attention … Many people in this world do not have the same standards that you do. They are not necessarily wrong.
You should trust the Ultimate Authority on these things, :
A new book has confirmed a theory that I first proposed in 1987, in a column explaining why men are physically unqualified to do housework. The problem, I argued, is that men — because of a tragic genetic flaw — cannot see dirt until there is enough of it to support agriculture. This puts men at a huge disadvantage against women, who can detect a single dirt molecule 20 feet away.
This is why a man and a woman can both be looking at the same bathroom commode, and the man — hindered by Male Genetic Dirt Blindness (MGDB) — will perceive the commode surface as being clean enough for heart surgery or even meat slicing; whereas the woman can’t even see the commode, only a teeming, commode-shaped swarm of bacteria. A woman can spend two hours cleaning a toothbrush holder and still not be totally satisfied; whereas if you ask a man to clean the entire New York City subway system, he’ll go down there with a bottle of Windex and a single paper towel, then emerge 25 minutes later, weary but satisfied with a job well done.
When I wrote about Male Genetic Dirt Blindness, many irate readers complained that I was engaging in sexist stereotyping, as well as making lame excuses for the fact that men are lazy pigs. All of these irate readers belonged to a gender that I will not identify here, other than to say: Guess what, ladies? There is now scientific proof that I was right.
This proof appears in a new book titled What Could He Be Thinking? How a Man’s Mind Really Works. I have not personally read this book, because, as a journalist, I am too busy writing about it. But according to an article by Reuters, the book states that a man’s brain “takes in less sensory detail than a woman’s, so he doesn’t see or even feel the dust and household mess in the same way.” Got that? We can’t see or feel the mess! We’re like: “What snow tires in the dining room? Oh, those snow tires in the dining room.”
And this is only one of the differences between men’s and women’s brains. Another difference involves a brain part called the “cingulate gyrus,” which is the sector where emotions are located. The Reuters article does not describe the cingulate gyrus, but presumably in women it is a structure the size of a mature cantaloupe, containing a vast quantity of complex, endlessly recalibrated emotional data involving hundreds, perhaps thousands of human relationships; whereas in men it is basically a cashew filled with NFL highlights.
(There’s more at the .)
The wife had to admit that hubby had suggested that, but she wanted to see HIM scrubbing those stairs.
That tells me all I need to know about that poor bastards “loving wife” and what a prize she is. To follow that line of thinking I should no longer wash both family vehicles and instead bitch at my wife until she steps up so that I can see HER washing her car. Yessirree that there is a sure fire receipe for a happy marriage!!!
Yeah keeping score – that will insure everyone’s equal… equally miserable.
To Mike G:
Next time my boyfriend tells me he can’t clean the counter after he cooks something because he doesn’t “see” that it’s dirty, I’m going to tell him I can’t take out the garbage because, after all, I’m a woman and genetically we aren’t as strong men. Those garbage bags are heavy!
And yes, it is put the toilet seat UP to pee. I’m just so used to saying “Did you put the toilet seat down?”
Nice try though. :)
Tracey:
I give you 6 months max as a couple.
I’ve been married 21+ years.
Chester: Good for you. Honestly. I’m glad to hear some people still value marriage. But with all due respect, you know nothing about my relationship, how happy we are, how well we get along or how much we love each other. We’ve already been together much longer than 6 months but thanks for your prediction. Shall I theorize about how your marriage lasted so long without knowing shit about it? Don’t go there please. We aren’t here to slam each other.
Next time my boyfriend tells me he can’t clean the counter after he cooks something because he doesn’t “see” that it’s dirty, I’m going to tell him I can’t take out the garbage because, after all, I’m a woman and genetically we aren’t as strong men. Those garbage bags are heavy!
Tracey, you still don’t understand … If you do that, it won’t bother him. Eventually the accumulated garbage will grow to be enough of an annoyance to him that hewill take it out on his own initiativ e (and he’ll probably be proud of himself for noticing and taking the initiative). Your threshold level for squalor is lower than his, that’s all. Don’t let it get to you.
Mike G has it right.
I’m always amused how it’s the woman’s perception of how things should be that MUST MUST MUST always determine the outcome in these situations.
What the guy wants (peace, quiet, a break from the hideous stress he’s under, the money to be saved by doing something cheaper, whatever) is irrelevant.
Always.
And Tracey, men don’t like their women to curse like sailors. Really. Feminine attributes are your biggest strength, not trying to be like us.
I utterly defy you to find one person who has said either one of those things.
You’re a big girl, Tracey. Learn to work the seat yourself.
You never see men complaining about women leaving the seat down, do you?
Well it’s never gonna be. Ever. In your life. At all.
Trying to divide everything up 50/50 is just going to make the both of you nuts. You’ll both feel you’ve gotten the wrong end of the deal and the other person got all the “easy” and “fun” jobs.
Sounds like a good deal to me. I’ve left the garbage sit un-taken-out for weeks at a time.
Wow. I think I’m done posting on this link. All the “advice” on how lady-like I should be and comments about how my boyfriend is going to dump me because I actually expect him to pull his weight around here is really not what I expected from this blog community. So much for providing a female perspective. And just for the record, I was not endorsing using scare tactics, withholding sex or any other fucked up means to get that help…I was simply saying it’s not unreasonable to expect it since after all there are two people messing the place up. Two people should share in cleaning that mess. I busted my ass to own a nice home that I have 20 grand of equity invested in. I did that myself without his help for 5 years. I never complained about it either. I have the same expectation of him that I’ve had of my past roommates. The fact that I’m dating him doesn’t negate the fact that I am not the maid. I, luckily, am dating a wonderful man who understands all this now. It’s a safe bet that if we did break up, the next woman would expect no less than what I do.
First; that man is a lazy wuss-bag who won’t even run away from Harpie spew, so he deserves it all over him.
Second; that lady couldn’t get me to venture into a room where she reposed in the all together, much less ruin my day by denying me the opportunity.
She obviously likes having her fist on the lever of the nut-vise, and he looks like the kind of D-bag that basks in the attention his sissyness (that, and wafer thin nads) enjoins.
I’m a lazy noof, but my secret strategerie: 1. I bring home flowers EVERY week. 2. I wait until until the wife goes out on a raid, then I do some obviously-cannot-possibly-go-unnoticed-big-time chore that will score big mucho grande points; thus granting me lazy-time. 3. I listened when I was lectured to about how it’s hard for the exalted ones to get in the mood in an untidy house. And 4: I explained that when asked in a speculative tone about doing some remodeling (possibly even the bathroom) a regularly nookified boyfriend will leap up and demand to know where the h*ll his tools are.
To be my age and not to have wrestled with a self centered manipulative wuhmann, what have I missed?
I didn’t know the field was so unbalanced in favor of “the other”. What other? “For you, slobgobbler 15 rupees, no? then I will kick your Pebbles Barney, take out the farging garbage!” Never met one a emm. Seriously, may I say that in a Fair Adult World, we teach others how to treat us by being “WHO WE ARE”! You get back what you give, so if you’re miserable and looking outside the bond, look inside, Barney, (Betty).
Tracey, your boyfriend needs to pull his weight. He needs to help. He moved in with you. It’s your house, and you are adjusting to the addition of someone in your space. Set your boundaries. Just don’t stoop to low tactics to control him. He’ll either rise to the occasion, or he’ll end up on the ash heap of exes, and good riddance.
You have opened up your home to this unwittingly lucky guy, make him retain his excellence.
Three people (one of whom was me) responded to you, and you’re ready to throw in the towel because one of them speculated that you might be driving your boyfriend away?
Okay then. Whatever makes you happy.
I find your desire to provide “a female perspective” rather dubious.
Several of the regular posters here are women. The person who owns and runs this blog is (obviously) a woman. Are their perspectives not “female” enough for you?
I agree. The problem is that different people have different definitions of “clean”. That was Mike’s point, yet you dismissed it out of hand because he apparently had the temerity to disagree with you.
And people tell me I should get married again! Why? I cook better than any woman I know, I prefer to iron my own shirts, I do my housecleaning when and as I see fit – or not. I come and go on my own schedule. I eat when and what I want. If I feel my time is better spent at the range than waxing a floor, I’m right (without an argument or parrying a guilt trip).
When I WAS married, I had an office at home, so I did a lot of the household work just because I was there. I could put in the laundry and go back to work. Dry it and go back to work. I didn’t have to stand there and watch it. Put soap in the dishwasher, turn it on and go back to work. I didn’t see it as a big deal. I also cooked dinner more than 75% of the time – and enjoyed it. My ex had a long commute and a demanding job – and I was there at the house. Big deal! [Of course, I also took off for work out of the country for a few months at a time, which led to the divorce.] The ex did not leave me a “to do list”, nor did she demand that I do things on her schedule in her way. She was happy and appreciative that I did the stuff and took a lot of the load from her.
Tracey – you’re the one who said you had been living together for a month. You might wish to take a look at your expectations and your SO’s – and see if you both expect the same things from your pairing. As far as toilet seats go, I always put down the seat and the lid to keep the puppies and kittens from diving in headfirst; and necessitating the excavation of a grave in the backyard. I’ve pretty much always figured that any woman I was with would be able to figure out the proper operation of the toilet seat if I did leave it up, however. [ever wonder why men don’t bitch about women leaving the seat down?]
Isn’t a boundary just like a line in the sand? If my limits and wishes need to be articulated to someone, I’m thinking I’ll just pack the car. Does anyone else value intuition and kindness? I just looked at the picture in the Link; Ms. Bennetts is someone from Actor’s Guild, right? That can’t be real. The only man I know who could give her a fair fight is in Prison. Kathy Bates in that James Caan she psycho sledgehammer thingy?
I gotta agree with Tracey.
I am a man, and I work as a high-steel rigger. If you’ll permit me a moment of immodesty, I would assert that I can hardly be accused in the least of possessing any feminine traits. Not sensitive in the least…But I guess I am one of those rare guys who is also a neat-freak. I know most guys aren’t as clean as women (and you can talk to any landlord – they prefer to rent to women precisely because of this issue).
But a lot of you guys are being lazy and hiding behind satire (I love Dave Barry’s stuff – but it’s COMEDY, not an editorial on reality).
I don’t buy the idea that guys can’t see dirt. BS!! With comedy and satire aside, let’s be reasonable. A home should be clean. Like your body, you wash it daily, right? Cleanliness tends to help out with your health, or at least the health of wife and family. As men it’s our job to make sure this happens. If you want to cling to comedy sketches that preserve your inclinations toward laziness, then feel free. But a person (read “man” or “woman”) has every right to expect that chores are done equally at home when there also exists equal work time outside of the home.
If a woman spends all her time at home, then I agree that she should also do more of the work involved in maintaining the home. This of course implies that the man is spending much more time working outside of the home. (The converse is also perfectly valid).
But that is not Tracey’s point. Outside the home they work equally. If they don’t mind the chores at home equally, someone is taking advantage. The guy obviously needs to do more. Tracey doesn’t strike me as the “keeping score” type. But after months or years of one-sided efforts in a relationship, (haven’t we all been there?) the score-keeping becomes inevitable, even if only in retrospect. Better to give your best always, the chips then tend to fall favorably.
I’m old-fashioned and, I like to think, chivalrous. That includes a real desire to be a hard worker.
Have I missed something, gentlemen?
I’ve personally found that when I was living with my ex, I was much more attentive to housework stuff. My view was she liked things neat, the least I could do was not be a slob. Now, my concepts of “neat” and “slob” may not have perfectly matched hers, but I made sure she had a fairly pleasant environment in which to live. The fact that she’s an ex had nothing to do with household chores.
It’s the tone of this article that is so infuriating. There are books out there about “training” your man. One recent book, if I recall correctly, and I think I do, was along the lines of the female author applying what she learned as a professional dog trainer to training her husband to do what she wanted. When you cross that line, expect a bunch of howling. If a man were to write a book like that, the public firestorm would be immense. Which is what Moron Pundit so aptly demonstrated.
It’s about common decency and the respect due to all individuals, whether male or female. This shrew publicly humiliating her husband – who as many commenters noted may be getting his just desserts for being such a doormat – is beyond the pale. Something tells me she’s like many women I know: you rarely hear any praise for their husbands in their conversations, just a constant stream of bitch-bitch-bitching.
Kick a dog around enough, and it’s eventually going to do one of three things. It’ll either bite, withdraw from any interaction with you, or it’ll run away. Bottom line. No “it should be” or “it’s not fair” or any of that stuff. It’s a fact of reality. If the dog sucks so much, let it run away. You’re both better off.
Frigger: Yes, I think you’ve missed something. Some people just have different expectations about what “clean” and “dirty” mean. It’s not even necessarily a male or female thing, though it tilts that way most of the time. I was always seriously confused by my mother’s assertions that a room was “filthy” when it clearly was not. This isn’t comedy. It isn’t an exaggeration. It isn’t laziness. I couldn’t understand why she would obsessively clean a room up when it wasn’t messy.
That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t share the workload. If you don’t have enough respect and love for each other to help out, you shouldn’t be married.
Hi Tracey —
I wasn’t making any predictions about your relationship, just offering an explanation, a bit of advice, and (I hoped) a bit of humor. I wish you both well and I hope you have a long, healthy, and happy time with the guy you love.
I do have one question, though, as a result of what you wrote in response to comments. You have a house. Your boyfriend moved in. To what extent is it “his” house? You want a 50/50 partnership, Do you still set all the standards and call all the shots? (Why must the toilet seat be left down?) For your sake I hope you guys have resolved this potential issue.
I, too, hope Tracey and her man have a long happy life together. But I’m a 49 y.o. guy and I’ve seen a lot of relationships in the formative stages and many of them founder on apparently little things, and without warning.
With so many hundreds of important things to think about, to even mention the toilet seat location strikes me as a bad sign.
It should be about .001 on a scale of 10. If it’s up and you want it down, put it down. You want equality, right? Men have to check every time, so why can’t women?
You think the counter is dirty? It’s easier to grab a sponge and spend 10 seconds wiping it than to bug him about it.
Thoughts like “my house,” “my $20K equity,” “my five years of hard work,” etc. look like warning signs to me.
Decide which hill you want to die on before you start a firefight.
Good luck.
The Band –
I certainly realize that people have different expectations, not just with the concept of cleanliness, but on a thousand other issues as well. I have not “missed” this, I just did not think it necessary to include the notion in my opinion as I consider it universally understood.
I only wish to clarify that that distinction should not be a chasm. The Dave Barry satire that describes men failing to notice dirt until agriculture is possible, while the women can see a molecule of dirt 20 feet away is humorous, and the hyperbole is intended and understood. Or at least it should be understood – therein lies the humor.
Yet the gap in perception between what men and women actually see regarding cleanliness cannot possibly be that great. Can it? That is the one issue I am tackling here – that it is a mistake for men to laugh it all off and cite a satirical reference in an attempt to bolster an argument. I have seen people (not just men) look earnestly for any little bit of “evidence” which might seem to entitle them to more leisure time – or at least an entitlement away from work. You know this too. I don’t at all admire the mindset that allows someone to behave that way.
I agree with 99% of what the guys have said in this post. And 100% of Rachel’s interpretation. Neither men, nor women should be trained (manipulated) by the opposite sex – by the very person who has professed his love and respect. Say it, then mean it.
We fellas feel pretty good about ourselves when we find Rachel defending us (I like it too, it makes me believe there are reasonable women in the world despite many examples to the contrary) but I feel it is also appropriate for us men to defend those same reasonable women in the face of some pretty lackluster appreciation from their male counterparts.
I suppose that’s where I come in.
Regards, thank you for your reply
f
frigger wrote:
The Dave Barry satire that describes men failing to notice dirt until agriculture is possible, while the women can see a molecule of dirt 20 feet away is humorous, and the hyperbole is intended and understood. Or at least it should be understood – therein lies the humor.
Two true anecdotes:
My first student apartment was about two blocks from the beach in San Diego. In September, shortly after we moved in, my roommate went for a walk on the beach at low tide and came home with an interesting collection of rocks he had picked up. He spread a newspaper on the floor of his bedroom and dumped the wet, sandy rocks on it to dry. The rocks were still there in July when I moved out.
I knew a fellow at work who told a personal story about the Great Toilet Seat Controversy. Seems his wife got up at 3:00 a.m. to use the facilities … and fell in. Naturally, it was his fault. A big argument ensued. They had other unresolved issues, too, but this was the incident that precipitated their divorce.
By the way, we use Bill’s rule in our house, for the same reason:
As far as toilet seats go, I always put down the seat and the lid to keep the puppies and kittens from diving in headfirst and necessitating the excavation of a grave in the backyard.
Also, if the toilet doesn’t meet surgical sterility standards, you can’t tell if the lid is down!
Yes, you’ve missed the same thing Tracey missed. The point.
You said that comedy is “not an editorial on reality”, but the best comedy is exactly that. An editorial on reality.
Dave Barry’s description of a man’s inability to see dirt is obviously exaggerated, but the fact that it’s exaggerated doesn’t mean the point he’s making is wrong.
No, men aren’t “unable” to see dirt. We can SEE the dirt just fine. The point is it doesn’t bother us the way it bothers women.
I live in a filthy, cluttered, pigsty of an apartment. I admit it. But you know what? I’m completely okay with it. As long as the floor is clear enough for me to walk across the room in the dark without tripping and breaking my face on the coffee table, it’s clean enough for me. I don’t have any desire to spend an hour scrubbing that ketchup stain out of the carpet or vacuuming all the dust out from under the couch. And after all, why should I? The ketchup stain isn’t going to grow tentacles and strangle me if I get too close. The couch dust isn’t going to sneak into my bedroom while I’m sleeping and stuff itself up my nose to suffocate me. Maybe if the President was on his way over I might tidy things up a bit. But barring that, the dirt isn’t going to bother me unless it starts posing a risk to my health.
It’s clean enough.
The problem is you and Tracey keep using the word “equally” as if it actually means something in this context. But like I said earlier, it’s impossible to divide chores up exactly 50/50. The simple fact of the matter is that just as different people have different definitions of “clean”, different people assign different value to household chores.
Tracey says she does “everything” around the house. I for one don’t believe that for a second. I bet if Tracey were honest with herself she’d probably admit that her boyfriend does plenty of things around the house, they’re just not things she considers particularly significant. Also, I bet there’s a good chance that some of the chores she bugs her boyfriend about aren’t really things that need to be done, but rather things that she wants to be done. See BillMax’s “scrubbing the stairs” example for an illustration of what I mean. Do those windows really need to be wiped down once a week? Is it really necessary for you to be able to see yourself in those hardwood floors? Probably not.
That doesn’t necessarily mean she shouldn’t want those things done, but it does strike me as a bit unfair that Tracey (or any woman, really) should be able to force her boyfriend/husband into doing chores that he doesn’t really think are necessary. As Tracey herself says, it’s her house that she bought with her money. It’s one thing if he makes a mess and doesn’t clean it up. That’s just inconsiderate. But demanding that he adhere to some arbitrary standard of cleanliness when he doesn’t even have a problem with the state of the house is just nagging.
Mike G –
That’s a funny story, I enjoyed it. Believe me, as a steel worker who travels quite a bit, I have seen this many times. I remember a few guys who shared an apartment for a summer. The first day they bought food and dishes and cooked their own meal. The dishes went into the sink after meal number one and that was the end of “cooking at home” – for the remainder of their tenure on the job it was strictly fast food, every day. And beer of course, which, I’ll admit is quite tasty and nutritious.
Well, those same dirty dishes remained soiled, in that sink, for the rest of the summer. When the clean-up at the apartment was required at the end of our job, (the lease was up at the same time)it was decided that it was just best to throw out the dishes, rather than clean them…because the maggots and other life forms that had called the sink their home (no one ever checked in on the dirty dishes, so how were they to know?) grossed out every last man in the room.
It’s kinda funny, I know. But it is only true that men can TOLERATE filth much more than women. But they definitely have the ability to RECOGNIZE when filth exists. Typically men can turn a blind eye here, but women typically cannot and will not. That is how nature intends it, as women are the primary care-givers for the children, and therefore tend to worry much more about cleanliness. There’s your evolutionary reason.
The distinction I want to make clear is this: Guys know when something is dirty. Generally, we just don’t care, and that’s OK – if you’re single. But if you’re involved in a relationship with a woman, and you say you love and respect her – I’m just saying man up and spend the extra 10 minutes a day bringing the household up to HER standard. It won’t kill ya, and you’ll be better off. You’ll be healthier. The wife is happier, which will mean you’re happier. And the neighbors won’t think you’re a slob.
There ya go. Men tolerate filth. Women do not.
Men who try to pretend that they don’t recogize when filth is present is wholly a different matter.
First you admit that Dave Barry is using hyperbole, then you say that Dave Barry is wrong because what he says isn’t literally true?
Methinks you are a bit foggy on the definition of “hyperbole”.
No one is trying to “laugh it all off”. And no one is saying women should do all the housework and men should do none of it, despite Tracey’s erroneous claims to the contrary.
The point of this post is that using threats and coercion to get a person you supposedly love to help out around the house more often is a recipe for a lousy relationship and eventual divorce. Leslie Bennetts is a miserable old shrew to treat her husband like that.
Heh. Too many things said well in this thread for me to really add to, so I’ll just add to the toilet seat conundrum.
Guys – if your S.O. nags you to put the toilet seat down, just leave it down all the time. That’ll fix her, just don’t forget to wipe it when YOU need to sit…
Mighty Samurai, you are correct that Leslie Bennetts is a miserable old shrew.
But I am not the least bit foggy on the definition of hyperbole, and to assert that this might remotely be the case is a bit insulting, isn’t it? The idea that you can read my opinions and come away with the conclusion that I might be dense or stupid is bewildering, but then, you are entitled to hold opinions of your own, aren’t you?
I have noticed amongst your many entries in these and other posts offered by Rachel that very often you write opinions that I agree with and quite
often applaud. But then there are those few entries, like this one, where your first effort is to mock and belittle. I don’t know if you are trying to disagree with me, trying to make a relevant point, or just trying to be “cute.” I suspect the last. It’s a pity, because certainly I know you can do better.
To clear things up a bit:
I have noted, quite correctly, that Dave Barry employed the literary device of hyperbole, in order to make his article humorous. I have also noted, quite correctly again, that some men here in the comment section have attempted to use that same hyperbole (and other humorous references)
as a real defense for their apparent laziness. You see this, don’t you? As a man who ostensibly employs his own faculty of reason, surely you must see this, and the inherent error of logic made manifest by such poor judgment.
When I wrote the line “…the gap in perception between what men and women actually see regarding cleanliness cannot possibly be that great. Can it?” I was being rhetorical, and necessarily implying and demonstrating that I certainly
understand the definition of hyperbole. Thanks for the critique, just the same.
Nowhere did I write, or even imply, that Dave Barry was “wrong,” which is what you accused me of. Again, I am bewildered – how you arrived at this is a mystery to me. I very clearly pointed out that it is OTHER MEN who use Mr. Barry’s exaggerated humor, (and other dubious modes of argument)as a defense for laziness who are
most likely “in the wrong.”
And yes, there are some here who are trying to “laugh it off,” which is OK, I am not making a
value judgment here. I’m simply making an observation. Obviously Tracey got frustrated somewhere along the line, and I just wanted to let
her know that some of us guys do value cleanliness and are quite capable and willing to go happily about our chores without taking cues from anyone.
But I am with you 100% that manipulative women such as Leslie Bennetts are to be abhorred.
I have noted, quite correctly, that Dave Barry employed the literary device of hyperbole, in order to make his article humorous.
I think that’s incorrect. He used hyperbole to sharpen his point, a point he takes seriously. And I find that his point is in compliance with reality, at least for me.
My mother and I always had completely different concepts about what was clean and what wasn’t. It isn’t laziness: I wasn’t being asked to clean the portion of the house that she and my dad took responsibility for. But in looking at it, I sincerely judged that it was not a mess and told her I didn’t think she needed to spend more time on it. She didn’t agree with me and I suspect most women wouldn’t agree either. And yet, my opinion is no less sincere.
I can’t speak for other men here. Maybe some of them are making excuses. But as a data point, I do think some men have a different view of what constitutes dirty—and not whether it’s acceptable dirt or not.
You know, I just helped a friend flee from exactly that kind of condescending, conditional, relationship. She even forced him to propose to her. Now that he finally got out, she’s at loose ends.
…shadenfreude shouldn’t feel so good.
Well, I thought it was rather insulting of you to accuse us of being lazy and of “hiding behind satire”.
So I guess we’re even.
So is the idea that the men on this forum are advocating that women should have to do all of the housework.
No I do not, because as I alluded to earlier, it is not a matter of simple laziness on the part of men. The simple fact of the matter is that most men simply don’t see any need to keep the house sparkling clean all the time.
Mop the floor once in a while? Sure. Clean up spilled food? Fine.
But steam cleaning the carpets and surgically sterilizing the plates and silverware? Not so much.
If there’s something smelly behind the couch, I agree that it’s probably best that it be cleaned up even though, as a guy, the smell probably doesn’t really bother me all that much. But what practical purpose is there in diligently scrubbing every tiny little stain out of my carpet?
The purpose of a rhetorical question is to convey a statement or make a point. It doesn’t have to be answered because the answer is made clear by the question itself.
If you were trying to be rhetorical, okay then. I’ll take your word for it. Just know that a properly constructed rhetorical argument shouldn’t lead to misunderstandings like that. It should have been clear that you were being rhetorical, yet it was not.
You stated:
“I don’t buy the idea that guys can’t see dirt.”
and:
“Yet the gap in perception between what men and women actually see regarding cleanliness cannot possibly be that great. Can it?”
These statements, to me, seem to imply that Dave Barry’s satirical argument is not merely overly exaggerated but wrong.
No, men aren’t literally unable to see dirt.
No, the gap in perception is not literally that big.
But no one ever claimed those two things were literally correct, which makes your statements seem rather odd.
If the meaning of Dave Barry’s hyperbole was clear to you, then why did you ask the question at all, rhetorical or not?
Such as whom? Who here has totally dismissed the idea that men should help out with the housework?
So it appeared to me as well. But I also think that her frustration may be clouding her better judgement. I have known countless women in my life who insisted that their boyfriends/husbands meet some arbitrary and totally unnecessary standard of “clean”. For instance, one of my female friends used to complain to me that her boyfriend didn’t clean out the soap residue that built up in the soap dish. My immediate reaction was “Um, okay, why should he clean the soap residue out of the soap dish? Is the soap residue going to evolve sentience and attack you in the shower if you don’t clean it out?” Like I said, it’s one thing if a man makes a mess and doesn’t even bother to clean it up. But forgetting to put the toilet seat down or only vacuuming the carpet once every two weeks rather than every two days are not valid arguments that your boyfriend/husband is an inconsiderate slob.
There is also the fact that many of the jobs that men do perform around the house are often totally dismissed by their wives or girlfriends. Think for a moment. How many men do you know that do very little “housework” but still mow the lawn, fix the sink, remodel the back porch, schedule appointments with the mechanic for car tune-ups, and are always willing to help move heavy furniture around whenever their wives or girlfriends need them to? A lot, I imagine. But to most women, these jobs don’t “count” as housework.
As a general rule, people really shouldn’t get married until they are in their 30’s and have an established job/career. The primary reason for marriage is to have children and rear them.
If two people do NOT want children and the attendant responsibility to rear them, then my advice is to NOT get married.
Roommates – fine. That way when the BS arguments start, it is MUCH EASIER to walk away. And there WILL be petty BS arguments over a myriad of seemingly minor issues. Keep in mind this truth – if something about your roommate irritates you NOW, it will only get worse in a marriage.
The secondary reason for marriage is when two people simply want companionship in older age. I am 49 and most women I date are getting quite concerned about “being alone”. Age does wonders for attitudes for BOTH genders.
My ex and I did not have children. She did not want them due to her career and focus on her blood family 175 miles away. We realized the marriage was over 2 years before the divorce, we just had to work through the issues. We had two really intense arguments in 2004, then calmed down and worked out the details of the divorce.
Jeremy is an idiot for tolerating that sham of a marital relationship. Leslie is a PIG in every sense of the word. But she holds the trump cards in the two children. But Jeremy needs to realize this is HIS LIFE sliding by in this unsatisfying dictorial relationship to Leslie the Hutt.
He alone has the power to alter his life course.
Leslie the Hutt
Ouch! That’s gonna leave a mark.
I wonder whether she’s Googled herself and found this discussion yet?
If nothing else, this article and discussion has left me feeling a lot better about my own marriage and its challenges.
My wife has never tried to use the withholding of intimacy as a lever to get me to move. But then, as a victim of child sexual abuse, she already has all the reasons she needs to withhold intimacy. I suppose that puts us enough sigma off the mean that I may not have a lot to contribute to the discussion here.
My wife nags me at times, but it’s fairly infrequent. Her occasional lapse into nagging can usually be attributed to (1) she’s feeling distinctly under the weather, or (2) he sense of smell is vastly more sensitive than mine but it’s my cat, or (3) the household is off routine and she really needs extra help.
Turns out I prepare about half the meals around the house. I have for most of our marriage. I used to do most of the dishes, but the kids have gotten old enough that they generate vast numbers of dirty dishes and each of us loads the dishwasher once each day. I do most of the vacuuming, because for reasons I can’t explain I find vacuuming a relatively pleasant chore. (I do have *one* X chromosome.) I do not like doing laundry, but she’s learned I make a hash of sorting it correctly and she doesn’t ask. We both straighten up rooms when the clutter hits our tolerance limit — hers is, surprisingly, a bit higher than mine, so I clean a lot of rooms. She cleans the master bathroom and I clean the other bathroom. She does not mow lawns, prune limbs, pick fruit, spray insecticide, or tinker with cars and I do not buy clothes and food for the kids or pick them up from school. (Unless a deviation from schedule requires it.) I am the designated wayward invertebrate slayer and she is the expert at chasing out birds who come down our chimney.
I work full time in a highly technical field. She works part time from home. I make 95% of the income and she spends 95% of it, and both of us are responsible and effective at our respective financial tasks.
None of this was written up in a pre-nuptual contract. It evolved over time, often with no words exchanged.
I would like more intimacy. She would like me to do more housework. Both of us know the other is already working close to his or her limit so we don’t push it.
Exactly. My soon to be ex wife became like this after the birth of our daughter. I was working 50 hours a week at a very stressful job while she stayed home to take care of our daughter. I took our daughter to daycare once a week while I was at work so that she could have time to herself, helped out with childcare equally when I was home, and on weekends she would leave me with our daughter most of the day to go party …but I wasn’t helping her enough at home. Even though I did all of the traditional “men’s work” like taking care of the yard, etc., when I was not at work we split all of the household chores (except “men’s work”) equally. While I was at work she played computer games between 4 and 8 hours a day even when our daughter wasn’t at daycare. I still didn’t do enough to help her. According to her, I didn’t show enough appreciation for what she did; she didn’t need to show appreciation for all the things I did because I was “supposed” to do those things.
She denied me sex, she treated me coldly, and she complained that I didn’t do anything to make her feel special anymore(!!!). Which is why she started an online romance with a man she knew from her online computer game. As she explained to him (I read the logs of their conversations) I was “an angel” compared to all of her friend’s husbands and she knew I’d never do anything to hurt her, but I was now “boring”.
Sense of entitlement is the only way I can explain it.
Not really, no. Which is a damn shame, for all of us.
I know I said I wasn’t going to post again but considering I’ve been the topic of conversation in numerous posts, I’d figure I’d say my peace once again. Frigger…you sound like a gentleman and a wonderful man. Wish there were more like you around.
First off, I’m 32 years old. I’m work ten minutes from my house for a large corporation as a corporate trainer. I have a stressful job. My boyfriend is 27 years old with an equally stressful job at a financial firm. He has 1.5 hour commute to work and a 1.5 hour commute home every day. He is not handy whatsoever. In fact, I’m the handy one; my father taught me what my brother didn’t care to learn. My boyfriend is also an only child; I am not. He moved from Texas to be with me and initially lived in his own apartment which he kept fairly clean.
Yes, I grew up in an extremely clean house and have very high standards of cleanliness. I made it no secret to him that when he moved in, I would not expect him to be as anal retentive as I am but that I did expect him to clean up after himself, not leave clothes, shoes, mail, etc. all over the place and to respect that once I’ve deep cleaned to make a concerted effort not to shit the place up since I worked all day to clean it. Not hard to do. I told him that while this is a home I paid for (as many of you pointed out), I want him to feel that this is his home too. I cleared out a spare bedroom that he made into his “man cave.” He was happy about that. Then, we painted the bedroom we sleep in and we chose the color together. We use a lot of my things and many of his things like his plates, pots, pans, bed, comforter, etc. We both have couches and I was willing to put his couches in the living room but he declined since we have cats and he didn’t want his leather couches ripped to pieces.
Now that you have the background, you should understand this has nothing to do with me trying to exhibit control over him. I made it clear before he moved in what my standards were. He made the choice to move in anyway. He even agreed beforehand that he would help out the best he could. The fact that he gets home so late, because of his commute, means that I have to have dinner ready when he gets in because he’s not home early enough to cook it. I do all of his laundry for him AND I clean the house myself. All I ask is for him to remember to take out the garbage, put the toilet seat back down after he pees, not leave his shoes in the kitchen, put his clothes away after I wash them instead of leaving them on the floor, put his coffee cup in the dishwasher instead of leaving it on the desk….you get the point. I don’t expect him to be on his hands and knees scrubbing the floor. In fact, I enjoy doing that myself and I wouldn’t LET him even if he wanted to. Now…he is by no means a “slob” but the reason I got pissed off is because many of you were making snap judgements without even having the facts of the situation. Again, my boyfriend is NOT handy. So it’s not like he’s outside building me a shed while I’m doing laundry. Further, until he moved in, I had a roommate who pulled her weight….she is nowhere even CLOSE to being as clean as I am but she knew the basic premise: when you live with someone, you try to be respectful of shared space and you clean it up. Unlike my boyfriend, she didn’t leave coffee grounds in the sink, she didn’t leave bread crumbs on the counter. When it snowed, I didn’t have to ask her to help me shovel because she offered first. Boyfriend? The driveway would have been covered with snow all winter if I hadn’t got up to start plowing it and only when I was out the door would he say “want some help?” I used to cut the grass too but then he decided he wanted that to be his chore.
So gentlemen…..(and Mike G., you’re kinda excluded cuz’ I was never really upset at what you said…you weren’t nasty to me)…..I guess my point is do not assume that every woman is some princess who sits on her ass and demands her man to do everything for her. It also slightly irritates me that your rationale for not helping is that you don’t have the same standards of cleanliness. To that point, women don’t typically have the crazy sex drive you men have but we suck it up and blow you more than we want to because we know it makes you happy. Why can’t you clean up a bit more if that makes US happy? Do you not do it because you think if you do you are being “controlled” because, if that’s the case, that’s YOUR bag, not mine.
I want to finish this post by saying I am dating a great guy who is emotionally supportive of me and treats me well. But it’s been a struggle. He doesn’t want to contribute as much financially until the day he decides to marry me. Until then, we share a house, one that is in my name and ultimately my responsibility. If something breaks, guess who has to pay to fix it. I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a bit of help around here. I’m good to him. I deserve that in return.
Your story sounds reasonable to me, Tracey – it’s a shame that you feel like you have to write a novel to defend yourself here, but some commentors are just so mean-spirited that it can seem that the only way to return the conversation to civility requires an exhaustive review of facts. I’ve felt that way before too, but after a bit I just let it go…why suffer fools who obviously know more about your life than you do?
Most people on this blog have a sense of humor and we all pretty much enjoy Rachel’s take on things – but when it comes to the comment section there are a few here who just want a forum to exercise there own petty judgments and hurl childish insults. They pounce quickly and the accusations and vitriol are not far behind. They become tiresome quickly, so I don’t blame you for not wanting to stick around. Afterall, when you’re hoping for simple and good conversation with people you suspect are a friendly audience, why stay when it’s only the abusive ones who will engage you?
I wish you well with the relationship.
Tracey – I suspect that the responses had to do more with the tone of your original comment than the content of it. In trying to push back against what you perceived as stereotyping, you engaged in a misrepresentation of the majority of comments which came before yours. In fact, you still did so with your last comment:
Few, if any, of the commenters here have done that. Some have pointed out that they personally know women who are that way, and some have pointed out that the majority of this type of behavior seems to come from the radical feminists out there, but I didn’t read any comments implying that all women acted this way. The closest I have seen are the ones which say that women like this are the reason they aren’t planning on getting married. Even this isn’t a condemnation of all women, just a decision that the odds of winding up that type are too high.
Also, men often find the whole toilet seat thing to be mind-numbingly petty. In my house there are three males (our two sons and I) and one female (my wife). Would it not, based solely on numbers, make more sense for my wife to put the seat UP after she goes to the bathroom? But she frequently complains to me about this. How about if the situation were reversed? Then I would say she had a point, because if that were the case, the only time one of them would have to worry about finding the seat up would be after the only male in the house went. But, again, only women seem to be allowed to make comments regarding this type of issue, and men are generally called insensitive if they don’t agree.
To all the guys who feel henpecked about putting the toilet seat down:
You’ll never be nagged about the toilet seat again.
Wayne B, very nice post. I agree with almost everything, but
the toilet seat thing. I guess this comes from my childhood upbringing by my father, a former Marine – mind you, I had 3 sisters and 3 brothers.
The boys were taught always to put the seat down when done peeing. It had nothing to do with number of males v. females, in fact we boys outnumbered our sisters 4 to 3.
But the simple fact is this – if I go into pee after a sister, the only incovenience I encounter if she had failed to put the seat up for me, was that I had to lift the seat myself or, forgetting this, possibly urinating a little on the seat directly, which would require a little mop-up with tissue. But if a sister were to go in after me, and I had failed to put the seat down, she also would be inconvenienced by having to put the seat down, but, if forgetting or overlooking this, the likely “inconvenience” would mean falling into the commode. There is no comparison in terms of who has the potential for the worst outcome.
So my Marine dad instituted the rule, in deference to the female side of things. I think this is what chivalry is about. Some guys have a problem with this, I suppose. I simply do not.
I’ve lived mostly alone for the last 15 years or so (with the occasional exceptions of a few months here and there with live-in girlfriends), but I still ALWAYS put the seat down when I am finished. Just a force of habit now.
Gotta say that I agree that it’s horrible to publicly humiliate her husband that way.
However, I will *also* say that I have had several live-in relationships before the one I’m in now. One of the reasons that I didn’t care to marry any of those guys is that they seemed to assume, simply because I am a woman, that automatically I got to do all the cooking and cleaning and other household stuff (we lived in apartments, not houses, so there wasn’t much “outside” stuff to deal with).
And this was on top of the fact that I was already paying more of the bills to begin with. Oh, and I work in my own home office, so I was already home more than they were.
Oh, yeah, and because money was tight, historically I have cooked a lot of chicken… which they also complained about. One guy also didn’t like some of my cooking experiments, and felt entitled to criticize them mercilessly (I threw him out on his butt, and he went back home to papa).
In their defense, I have since read that men’s physiology makes them crave red meat more often than women do… still, these guys weren’t doing the shopping or the cooking, and there wasn’t much money for T-bone steaks.
The guy I live with now does better than those guys did… but even after living with him for about six years now, I still have to ask him to take out the garbage before it starts to squirm away.
We both do minor repair jobs. He does fix-it stuff with the computers. I do all the driving, as he cannot due to low vision.
There are a fair number of guys out there who still view a woman as a personal servant… I suppose that the trick is identifying them before the relationship gets serious.
And no, I am not trying to make a case for the man being ordered around… just for more of a partnership. If the guy wants the woman to take a traditional role, then he should take one too–the traditional man’s role.
My father didn’t respect or like women, and he viewed his wife and his daughters as entities who were supposed to obey him. He didn’t brook dissent very well.
So, while other women may find fulfillment in being a traditional wife and mother, personally I grew up having very little use for that job (and it *is* definitely a job).
I’ve noticed the number of snarky comments here relating to the woman’s being overweight… tell me, would it be any better if she still looked young and “hot”?
Because I’ve noticed that a lot of men will put up with a truly unbelievable amount of crap from women who are young and still “hot” looking, however you define that.
Yeah, there are some bitter women out there, and no doubt some days I qualify as one… but still, it takes two to tango, as the old saying goes.
But never on my worst man-bashing days have I done some of the stuff I’ve seen some women get away with… just because they’re younger and “hotter.”
Both parties should think with the big head as well as with the small one.
Pam Maltzman wrote:
I’ve noticed the number of snarky comments here relating to the woman’s being overweight… tell me, would it be any better if she still looked young and “hot”?
Absolutely! Because she set herself up for derision:
IMHO, she vastly overestimates the incentive power of her nooky. Frankly, I’d scrub the toilets once an hour just to avoid her. It’s not so much that she’s overweight, it’s also that she looks like an unpleasant person and sort of … .
Your impression of her may differ from mine, of course.
(Odd that in the photograph the son is the only one looking at the camera. And his eyes seem to me to be saying, “I’m trapped in a living hell. Please, kill me now.”)
Hmmm. Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, Leslie Bennetts’ piece has been edited since it was first posted, to remove some of the more obnoxious bits. (The nooky business is still there, though.) In particular, I could swear that in the original version, the graf …
Sinking back into torpor, they sigh with relief. “Oh, you’re so lucky!” they murmur. “Jeremy is soooo wonderful!”
… was followed by a self-congratulatory boast to the tune of “No, I’m the wonderful one! Me! Me! Me! I do everything to make the party a success, and my husband does a little bit of cleanup work afterward … but only because I went through all the work of training him!”
Did anyone save a copy of the original version?
I notice that more than 2300 readers have given the piece an aggregate rating of 1.5 out of 5.
Mike G:
Well, I’ve heard similar comments before from other women of my acquaintance.
Seems to me that there’s hardly any comment a person could make, anytime, anywhere, which wouldn’t elicit snarky, derisive comments from people on the internet…
Hell, if I were married to a guy who had just royally pissed me off (maybe even deliberately), I might be inclined to withhold sex too!
So, we’re supposed to just automatically be in the mood and “put out,” no matter what happens, no matter how we’re treated? Well, that’s really convenient for the guy, at least… tell me, is snarky treatment really supposed to get a woman “in the mood” for some “nooky”?
IMO, if that’s what a guy really wants, maybe he really needs an inflatable doll rather than a real woman.
BWAHAHA… when I run into guys with that attitude, it just makes me even happier that I’ve never married at all… especially to anyone remotely resembling them.
You know, I have been acquainted with several men who have been badly mistreated by women… IMO much worse than just some nagging now and then.
I have sympathy for them–but only up to a point… because, you see, the ones I know forgot to engage the big head as well as the little one.
Because the woman was young and “hot,” they married her without getting a clue about how she might treat them down the road. They have ended up taking all sorts of crap from the woman, especially if there is a kid involved. One acquaintance got physically attacked by his wife, an intermittently-raving paranoid.
If these guys had taken a little more time to notice what was between the ears as well as what was between the legs, they might have avoided a lot of trouble. And yes, I’m aware that many people’s behavior changes once the ring is on that finger (both males and females).
Oh, yeah, and men don’t look any better when they get old and gray, either. They get fat and bald too.
So, we’re supposed to just automatically be in the mood and “put out,” no matter what happens, no matter how we’re treated? Well, that’s really convenient for the guy, at least… tell me, is snarky treatment really supposed to get a woman “in the mood” for some “nooky”?
Um … no. My point was that Ms. Bennetts starting assumption seemed to be that sex is a commodity, to be rationed out as a reward for good behavior — like doggie treats. But I, and others, questioned the intrinsic value of that commodity, especially considering that it would be rather easily obtainable elsewhere if her husband were sufficiently motivated.
The use of sex as a bargaining chip or a reward for good behavior is one of those things that makes me go “ewwww …” For me, half the fun of happynakedtime is enabling the woman I love to transform into a creature of pure pleasure. Boinking, IMHO, should be something you both want to do.
Yup. And then she wonders why he was recieving “tender blandishments” and “nookie” from his secretary or a local $20 whore. Unless she can blow smoke rings from her vagina, she doesn’t have anything that every other woman in the world has.
Mike G:
But… but… but isn’t “treating sex like a commodity” exactly what guys do when they go to a hooker in the first place?
Agreed. But since there is often a mismatch in how often both partners actually want “happynakedtime,” sometimes the woman is having sex more to keep the guy happy than something she really wanted to do at the time.
I went out with a guy ONCE (and only once) who turned out to have gotten his first experience with hookers… and that’s how he treated every other woman he knew as well. Yecch.
Tony:
Note: I am not defending this behavior… however, I’m not sure why some folks are all that upset about this. The couple of women I know who were extremely manipulative with men, seemed to get their way with men a lot. In fact, sometimes the guy seemed to not realize he was being manipulated, or else he actually liked the appearance of being kissed up to.
Many of those women I’ve observed who are really good at playing helpless and stupid seem to always have a bunch of men in line to “help” them.
IMO those games make both parties look stupid, but it does seem to work for some people.
Mike G:
Pam Maltzman:
Well, yes. And if a wife or girlfriend wants to walk like a hooker, quack like a hooker, and screw like a hooker … then who am I to say she isn’t a hooker? It’s just that I don’t think that Ms. Bennetts is a particularly talented one.
BTW, which “guys” are you talking about? I’ve never used the services of a hooker, and to the best of my knowledge neither has any guy I’ve ever called a friend. Sex with a prostitute is demeaning to both parties … and these days, it’s risky, too.
Many men, myself included, are wired to want to help a woman in distress. But that impulse is cancelled when we realize that the woman is playing us. And stupid ain’t attractive, not to any guy with a measure of self-respect.
I don’t think Ms. Bennetts was playing helpless and stupid. I think she was being loveless and domineering and contemptuous. Definitely not attractive, at least not to me. Perhaps some men like that sort of thing.
(Sudden mental image of Bennetts in skimpy leather Nazi dominatrix gear. Ewwwww ….)
Mike G:
I’ve heard guys say things such as, if the woman doesn’t “put out” after so many dates (usually by four or five, though some guys say one!), she’s not worth their time. It’s like the guys are keeping tabs on how many dinners and how much money are being “invested” in getting laid.
If guys are demeaned by prostitution, not many of them are saying so; in fact I was surprised to see you state that. The men I’ve met who claim to have used prostitutes don’t seem to feel demeaned by it… in fact, some of them prefer to use prostitutes rather than invest their emotional energy in a relationship.
It’s a dance. It’s not all women’s fault, nor is it all men’s fault.
I understand that people are attracted to other people who look a certain way.
But what appalls me is that, judging by the comments some people make, they seem to not consider “unattractive” people to even be human. They feel entitled to make exceedingly rude comments in public.
I’m not ugly, but I’m 54, I’m not slim anymore, I’m a big woman to begin with (so I stick out like a sore thumb), and I have some old injuries which sometimes cause me to limp.
One night, after working, I felt really trashed and tired but needed to shop at Wal-Mart. I was wearing sweat pants, a T-shirt, and a jacket of material similar to the sweat pants. My hair was pulled back.
One of the Wal-Mart employees made some comment to a co-worker to the effect that she’d just lost her appetite for lunch after seeing me. She was no beauty herself. What a bitch.
But people feel free to say shit like that. I guess, unless a person is good-looking, we’re subhuman–in the eyes of some people.
I felt like reminding the useless bitch that people like me were the ones who paid her fucking wages.
Some days it doesn’t seem as if I left junior high at all.
Man, this is the thread that just keeps on giving…
Pam – you’re right about thoughtless and careless people. They’re everywhere. After the “X” generation and the “Y” generation, the new one is the SHAMELESS generation.
They work at your local restaurant and care not about talking amongst their coworkers about their bowel movements, within earshot of their patrons. Or about how they got “trashed” the night before, puked all over. Nearly half of their speech consists of expletives. They talk of their sexual escapades amongst themselves right in front of you, with the assumption that they are talking no more of math and history. “Polite company” was never introduced to them as the most vague concept…(perhaps, I suppose, somewhere behind the distinction between Specific and General theories of Relativity), which is to say, completely absent.
I’ve, at times, been eating a meal while listening to young “ladies” talk about blow jobs. Pros and cons, naturally – this is maybe a fact of life, but not while I’m eating, please. Why in public at all? There used to be a standard in place whereby people understood the difference between public and private. Between shared knowledge and confidentiality. No more. Now, you’re a 3-headed Martian if you believe that there ought to be a distinction.
In fact, many young adults are surprised if you question their understanding of decorum. (OK, decorum is not a word in existence for them). I know this from experience. Sad experience. The young guys I’ve pulled out of their cars through their windows…. would begrudgingly verify this sentiment.
We truly live in disgusting times. People have no shame these days.
Don’t shop at Wal-Mart. It’s worth the extra 20% in price to be treated well and with respect at the better stores.
Frigger,
Thanks for your comments.
I’ve seen plenty of people in Wal-Mart who looked no better than I did that night, yet they don’t seem to be the recipients of ultra-rude comments like that. I think part of it is that I stand out just by virtue of my size (6’1″). I *was* really tired that night after working.
It might be nice to think that it’s all the fault of the current generation… but it reminds me a lot of the stuff that junior high students do to each other… the put-downs in order to make one’s self feel better. The pink monkey (for whatever reason) gets picked on mercilessly.
It’s just that I was always led to believe that some people grew out of that as they got older. I guess I was wrong.
And yeah, some of us are still too thin-skinned about it after all these years.
I go to Wal-Mart partly because all the ones in my area are open 24 hours (yay!), and if I shop at 3:00 a.m., there are many fewer screaming children running around.
It’s not just a Wal-Mart phenomenon, though. Were I to go into Neiman-Marcus, I’m sure there would be snotty employees as well.
But yeah, I agree 100% that bowel movements and blow jobs, among other things, are best discussed in private if at all. There has definitely been a coarsening of manners. Yikes.
I taught that these kind of men have embedded “asshole detectors” that let a girl determine what kind of man they are.
If they dump them because they didn’t “put out”, the girls “dodged a bullet”.
Tony:
Yeah, I have to agree with you there.
Guys like this don’t always tell such stuff to the women they’re dating. I’ve heard a lot of it from guys with whom I’m merely occasional buddies.
Same goes for relationship breakups which hurt like hell at the time, but after the passage of time were seen to have been dodging a bullet.
Look… I do agree that it’s not right for a woman who isn’t interested in a man, to keep going out with the guy and having him buy her dinners and drinks and movies.
I guess it takes all kinds. The problem lies in figuring out which kind you’re dealing with before you get in too deep. Note: I’m not advocating treating either party like either a victim or a predator.
In all the excellent responses to this harridan’s diatribe, I saw not one that asks the question:
What about the kids?
What are the children learning in that household? What sort of human beings will they become? Would you want your son or daughter to marry the product of that set of parents? How are they suffering from the lack of an effective father? How are they suffering from watching guerrilla marriage tactics work? What do they think of their parents?
A fellow I know married a woman who turned out eventually to be psychotic (literally), but who played a remarkable game throughout their 19-year marriage: she always needed to feel that she was a “good girl” in every transaction, so she manipulated with great cunning to make sure there was a “bad guy” nearby on whom she could blame anything. Most of the time, the victim was her husband, and the audience was her children, though occasionally the children became victims themselves. The poor man (who was, himself, pretty far short of perfect, and against whom she did have some valid complaints) had no idea what hit him, and for years wondered what he was doing so very wrong that his marriage seemed so difficult. Now that they’re divorced, he understands a lot better.
But guess what? The kids, who are now grown, blame him for the divorce. They spent a lifetime hearing (subliminally — she really was subtle) what a loser he was, and how innocent and good their mother was, and they believed it. So they’ve willfully severed most every contact with their father. They’ve lost him, and he’s lost them.
The husband is not the only victim. The kids are the victims.
Pam Maltzman wrote:
A) Perhaps if you were married to someone who either gave or withheld affection based on what they wanted to achieve at that moment, rather than on your intrinsic worth and beauty, you might understand better how deeply hurtful this is. It hurts equally regardless of whether you’re aware of the game or not.
B) Why would the fact — and a fact, it is — that many men don’t know when they’re being manipulated, make this sort of manipulation any less offensive? Abuse is abuse, even if you don’t know that’s what it is.
This has relevance to single women’s behavior and dress in public places. Some young women dress and behave like they want… you know. Yes, it’s always the man’s responsibility to restrain himself, and to accept “no” when he hears it. But women have power and know how to use it, and if they respect men, they don’t dress in a manner that says “Please Do Me Now” and behave like that’s what they want, and then halfway into the game say “Oh, sorry, I just wanted a few drinks.” If they respect men as human beings, they don’t use their power that way; they dress modestly until they really do want what it seems like they’re asking for (like, after they’re married).
It’s like the man being stronger physically, but never physically forcing his wife to do anything. If people respect each other, they use their power to uplift, assist, and fulfill each other, not to take advantage of them. The sexual power of women over men is real; use it for good, not for evil.
Well. It may be a culturally driven thing, but it is very common in Public discussion to observe a fairly rare (one would hope) dysfunctional example of coupling, and then experience an onslaught of obviously ill-informed opinion framed against such an unfortunate family. So much seems to be assumed at face value, notoriety and tongue-in-cheek play havoc with reality. Bob, don’t forget that males have a reciprocal attractive power “over” women. It is a dance, and just because there is a “victim” don’t assume that there are not two “playing”.
Plumb Bob:
A long-ago ex-boyfriend of mine had an ex-girlfriend from hell just like what you’re describing. Please note that I am not defending such behavior.
Personally, I was appalled by it. But I also noted that the beyotch in question had men standing in line for her, as long as her looks held out. And other similar beyotches had men standing in line for them.
I, on the other hand, wasn’t as “hot” as this beyotch was considered to be… however, I treated men a lot better. Didn’t matter.
And yes, I felt sorry for her kids… not the least because, every time she turned up pregnant, there was a question of paternity.
This beyotch and her shenanigans may have contributed to the early deaths of two men I used to know, one of them the ex-boyfriend.
Again, I’m not defending this kind of behavior. But I sure as heck have noticed that for a lot of women, it gets results, even though in the long term it makes both parties look like idiots, IMO.
Yeah, in general I agree… however, OTOH, I’ve heard men say (out loud and in print) that they will go for the “hot-looking chick” over the woman who’s dressed “like a librarian.” OTOH, if they go to a club to meet the opposite sex, maybe a lot of those guys are not looking for anything more committed than a fling.
It’s a dance, and for people like me, it’s hard to know just what the other person wants when they don’t come out and say it. IMO both men and women need to treat each other with respect.
I couldn’t agree more… and the respect part goes for both men and women.
Just to stir the pot a little bit, I believe that Dennis Prager wrote something to the effect that men will try to get away with stuff, and that women are supposed to get tough and not let them get away with it.
The funny thing is that this article may as well have been written by my girlfriend. After she “accidently” got pregnent; despite repeatedly assuring me that she was infertile and giving me a guilt trip about how I didn’t trust her every time I tried to use a condom. Now I’m chained to an overweight, over bearing, bitch who’s bleeding me dry financially, and doesn’t put out. Not that I’m attracted to her any more anyway.
Oh well at least I only have one more semester until I graduate. Then I’ll be able to find a real job, afford a real lawyer, and will only be chained to her financially. Becoming an indentured servant and paying her mommy support will surely suck. But endentured servitude still beats slavery any day of the week.
To Mike Hunter:
Owee. Your wife sounds a lot like the ex-girlfriend of my long-ago ex-boyfriend who passed away recently (the man, not the bitch)… except that the bitch I’m referring to wasn’t overweight.
Good luck. Hope you find who and what you’re looking for in the future.
Regarding your “master”: I’m betting that although the overweight is no fun, that probably pales next to the part about being a bitch who lied to you.