I saw the Mother of the Year with my own eyes.
Saturday night, Rupert and I were waiting in the car in front of Circuit City for them to bring out something we’d just bought. As Rupert quietly fantasized about the fish we were going to eat for dinner as soon as we got done with this task, I watched all the people going in and out of the store and made fun of them. For example, the teenager with the waistband of his pants at roughly testicle level, which meant he had to literally hold his pants up with one hand as he sauntered. That always makes me laugh out loud. Moron.
But the sea of humanity reached its apex of heartwarming wholesomeness in the form of a beautiful family. There were four blond children in the age range of 4 to 10-ish scampering around their parents chaotically. There was Dad, wearing painfully-tight Lee jeans in faux-cowboy fashion, replete with cameltoe and gigantic gold belt buckle, white button-down long-sleeved shirt, and cowboy hats-n-boots.
And then there was Mom, bringing up the rear.
She was slow because she was about 8 months pregnant. Great with child, I tell you - and you could even see the bottom part of her belly because the wind blew her shirt up. Glorious fecundity! She waddled slowly towards the entry area and when she reached a cement post, she had to stop and lean on it to catch her breath. Kids and Dad waited with her patiently as she panted and took deep breaths, regaining the strength to continue on.
Finally she was ready, and they headed for the door. The kids went on in, but before following, Mom and Dad each took one more long drag off the cigarettes they’d been holding the whole time, and then flicked them to the ground.
Unfortunately for Rupert, I had very strong feelings about this couple and I shared them with him quite loudly and aggressively for a solid 5 minutes. And brought it up again half a dozen times before the evening was over. But still I was filled with questions.
Question 1: Is it wrong to want to punch a pregnant woman in the face?
Question 2: Why do people make babies they obviously hate?
Question 3: When will smoking cigs while preggers legally be considered just as bad as smoking crack while preggers?
Question 4: How does a man whose fashion choices require maximum nut-smashing manage to have functioning sperm?
Question 4a: Is it reasonable to refer to someone who smokes around children and his pregnant wife a “man”?
(P.S. I have been known to smoke cigarettes and this is not a judgment about smoking itself. I’m just saying, if I ever were to become pregnant, I wouldn’t smoke even if you offered me a billion dollars.)
1. Absolutely not.
2. Can’t answer as my wife and I have only tried to make babies we love.
3. Hopefully soon. I’m as small-government minded an individual as they come on the issue of smoker’s rights, even though I can’t stand being around smoke myself. That having been said, it’s one thing when you’re amongst you’re own kind, puffing on a cig.
Quite another when the consequences of your actions will have a direct and adverse effect on a living being that can’t fend for itself.
4. Can’t say. I wear baggy clothes.
But not baggy like the sauntering teenager.
4a. No.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:09 amDon’t buy into the health fascist agenda. Having an occasional cig or drink does not destroy babies - if it did, the human race wouldn’t have made it this far.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:14 amHi Rachel,
To answer your questions:
1) Wrong? I don’t know about. Human? Definitely. Ask any girlfriend/sister/female co-worker. Especially right after the (second or third) baby shower.
2) I’m sure they don’t hate their kids, they just don’t think. Never attribute to malice what can be easily attributed to ignorance or stupidity (or simple apathy, or… or… or just about anything that requires less passion and forethought than actual hatred).
3)Before you open that can of worms, realize that the contents are under pressure: making smoking-while-pregnant a crime would require the legislators to differentiate clearly between the woman’s body, and any other genetically-human entitites who happen to be temporarily renting space inside it.
4) No idea… but then again, the toes of camels are meant for crossing barren deserts, aren’t they?
4a) The real question is whether a woman who smokes around her kids can be considered a mother.
Just my 2c. worth.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:20 amI despise smoking - it is a nasty, smelly habit that caused my dad to have three heart attacks and my grandmother, great aunt & great uncle’s deaths due to lung cancer. When I was dating I absolutely refused to go out with smokers. One of my long-time male friends was very interested…but the answer was NO, as he was a chain smoker.
Having said that, I have numerous relatives who smoke, and who have had babies. As far as I know there have been no adverse health problems caused by parental smoking for the children. Only anecdotal, I know.
Question 1: Is it wrong to want to punch a pregnant woman in the face?
It’s not wrong to WANT to - but absolutely wrong to follow through on it.
Question 2: Why do people make babies they obviously hate?
Accidents? More likely they aren’t well-informed about the health consequences, or they think that it doesn’t/won’t apply to them.
Question 3: When will smoking cigs while preggers legally be considered just as bad as smoking crack while preggers?
Probably never, as it’s not nearly as bad as smoking crack while preggers. The baby isn’t born addicted to nicotine with severe withdrawal symptoms. Most common side effect of smoking while preggers is low-birth weight babies.
Question 4: How does a man whose fashion choices require maximum nut-smashing manage to have functioning sperm?
A miracle? Or maybe said children aren’t biologically his?
Question 4a: Is it reasonable to refer to someone who smokes around children and his pregnant wife a “man”?
Nope, he’s not a “man” at all, as he’s putting his personal gratification and addictive behavior ahead of the well-being of his wife and child. Also, he’s not providing a good role-model for his other children, or being a “leader”.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:29 amI used to make fun of those kids too. Then I started doing kickboxing and I dropped so much weight that my old fat-pants wouldn’t fit me properly any more. Even if I pulled my belt to the very last hole they still weren’t tight enough to stay up. Now whenever I run anywhere I have to remember to keep one hand on my belt to stay decent. : )
To answer your questions:
1. In this case, certainly not.
2. Because misery loves company, I guess.
3. Won’t happen unless cigarettes are made illegal, IMO.
4. Because a long time ago, some granola-crunching hippy decided that “violence is wrong” and we’re not allowed to smash stupid people in the nuts anymore.
4a. Only if you insert “petty excuse for a” before it.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:32 amYou, sir or madam, are simply wrong.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:33 amQuestion 1: Nope.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:34 amQuestion 2: Because they don’t think they will hate them at the time that they are creating them. They have something else on their mind at the time.
Question 3: Hopefully, never.
Question 4: I have never, ever heard a man being described as having a camel toe before.
Question 4a: I think smoking is a nasty habit, but it’s not as bad as all that. Despite the political movement that claimed that second hand smoke is bad, they have yet to produce a single victim by name of the thousands they claimed were dying every day from it.
Back in “the day” my mom was told to cut down her smoking to no more than 5 cigs a day when she was pregnant, and I think I turned out all right right right right right right - slap. The Dr. was a smart man - he knew that for my mom, having her stop smoking entirely would have produced wild hormone and adrelaline swings that would have likely caused me to be born a murderous psychopath, and would certainly have turned my mom into one for the duration. On the other hand, she did not bathe her children in the warm electromagnetic radiation sea that we are all submerged in - WiFi, Cel Phones, EVDO, HSPRA, computer monitors, Bluetooth and god knows wheat else. I am a gadget junkie, but even I realize that all that stuff cannot be good for developing brains.
I’m not a parent yet, but have enough childhood memories to understand how tough kids can be, and my brother and I were “good” kids. Outside of real abuse, I am hesitant to criticize unless the kids are causing a scene in one of my favorite restaurants.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:45 amI was all set to hear a moving story about a woman who’s kid was misbehaving in public and was rightfully whacked on the ass by his mother. Instead I get a story about a woman who’s nicotine habit is so bad she can’t even walk to her car without stopping to rest (I know, eight months pregnant, but still…) and a husband so intent on making himself sterile you’ve got to wonder if there might be a big piece of uranium in his huge belt buckle.
Bravo, Rachel! Bravo! You faked me out and I’ve been reading your blog for a looooong time.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:47 amAnswer to all five questions:
Mind your own business.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:49 amI’m sorry, but if second-hand smoke really was a killer, I’d been dead at the age of 8. You would walk in my grandparents’ house and the haze from the cigarette smoke would be a literally visible haze.
Of course, grandpa died of lung cancer in 1969 when I was 15, absolutely killing any intention on my part to take up smoking, but second-hand didn’t seem to do very much damage…HACK…GAG….THUD.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:53 amA few years back my sister’s friend was told by her doctor that 10 cigarettes or less per day should be fine. I don’t know whether the doctor was a genius, a quack, or somewhere in between, but it seems like plausible advice.
When the media invests a great deal of time and effort in creating a boogeyman, it’s a safe bet that you’re being hoodwinked.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:54 amI actually saw a pregnant woman smoking a few months ago. Outside a walmart (the jokes write themselves). I wonder if she figured out why I stared at her as I walked in. I almost said something to her but she looked like the type of bitch to raise a loud stink about being told what to do.
Because she obviously makes good choices.
As for your questions:
May 19th, 2008 at 10:55 am1. As long as it’s not the stomach, though that would probably hurt the baby less than her chain smoking.
2. Because “every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great…”
3. Probably never. But having an ounce of pot will cost people their kids.
4. Maybe he doesn’t and she’s getting action from her brother, Cletus. (I had to go there.)
4a. No.
Question 1: Is it wrong to want to punch a pregnant woman in the face?
Want = no. Doing = yes.
Question 2: Why do people make babies they obviously hate?
No solid answer to this one. Maybe they make the babies to stay on welfare.
Question 3: When will smoking cigs while preggers legally be considered just as bad as smoking crack while preggers?
Right after tabacco and salt are made illegal. The FDA has stated that if they both hadn’t been around as long as they have, they both would be banned right now.
Question 4: How does a man whose fashion choices require maximum nut-smashing manage to have functioning sperm?
No one said they were his. It is obvious she’s not exactly infertile.
Question 4a: Is it reasonable to refer to someone who smokes around children and his pregnant wife a “man”?
No. Nor is it resonable to consider her a mother.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:59 amI still see this look, and I can’t, for the life of me, understand why it’s still “in style” (to the extent it is). Didn’t this style begin like 15 years ago? It would have been like me wearing a leisure suit and platform shoes while I was in high school in the late 80’s/early 90’s.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:03 amRachel,
Yes, you have obviously seen one low rent momma. But don’t let your outrage run away with you. For one thing, I know - KNOW! - that the ‘evidence’ concerning the bad health effects of secondhand smoke is largely bushwa. The EPA study admits (naturally nobody emphasized this) that the highest level of Secondhand Smoke they expect to encounter in the real world amounted to smoking 2.5 cigarettes per day. The touchstone numbers for smoking are that a pack a day smoker greatly increases his chance of lung cancer over twenty years. 2.5 cigs a day ain’t hurting anybody. Now, if those are the actual facts on the ground about secondhand smoke, I really have to expect that the dangers of smoking while pregnant are also wildly exaggerated. Hell, my mom smoked while she was pregnant. My Lady’s mom smoked while SHE was pregnant.
The people you saw are smokers because they probably have EVERY vice common to poor white trash. Being smokers is a symptom, but not a very important one. What should concern you is the dumb sow is probably sucking up Pabst Blue Ribbon too, in large quantities. Maybe Jim Beam as well. That WILL damage her kid.
On the other hand being born the child of obsessively politically correct, vegetarian, anti-smoking, anti-war zealots probably produces more serial killers per capita. At least it would drive ME to whack somebody with an ax.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:06 amQuestion 1: No.
Question 2: Who said they hated them?
Question 3: When it becomes illegal for a parent to have the same baby killed by a physician-operated stick blender and vacuum cleaner, perhaps? I’d say these days, a cigarette-smoking mother is the least of an unborn baby’s worries.
Question 4: Obviously he has enough for five kids. Guy mustg be doing something right.
Question 4a: Of course it is. You’ll remember that not smoking around pregnant women is something that’s only come up in the last 15 years or so seriously. We managed to have children who won World Wars, set world records in every imaginable field, invented the technology we enjoy today, and made this a pretty fine country all while having a parent or two who smoked. I think the next generation will manage just fine, too.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:17 amI smoked a pack a day, had the occasional drink (1-2 beers/wine) and drank gallons of coffee during all 3 of my pregnancies, and had absolutely no complications with either the pregnancies, the births or with my children’s health. They are currently aged 9, 12, & 13 and have never had any health problems, they even have many less colds and other respiratory illness than I did as a kid living in a non-smoking house. All of them were full term and all kids weighed between 6-7 lbs when born, a normal weight. Two have tested at so-called “gifted” levels and the 3rd has a normal intelligence level, and none of them have any mental, behavioral or developmental problems. Yes, I tried to cut down on the smoking but trying to quit completely would have put me over the edge stress-wise and would have likely caused more complications than continuing smoking did. Even before the kids were born I confined my indoor smoking to the room where the wood-burning stove is, which is somewhat isolated from the living area of the house. I find it ironic that I supposedly did everything “wrong”, yet I have many acquaintances who did everything “right” and still had complications with their pregnancies or health issues with their children.
I agree that anything put into the body in excessive levels can be harmful but I get tired of hearing that pregnant women who smoke or drink are abusing their babies, but nothing is said about those who consume huge amounts of junk food, fried food, sugars and all the nasty chemicals, preservatives and artificial sweeteners that come with those foods. Sorry for the length of this, but saying that smoking cigs has the same effects as smoking crack just set me off.
PS-I am also a vegetarian, fully and continually employed since the age of 18, still married to my 1st husband who is the father of all 3 kids, and we were married 5 yrs before the first kid was born. Our house is paid for (and is not a trailer house), has no appliances or junk cars in the yard, and we have never received gov’t assistance. My drink of choice (when not pregnant) is 12 yr old single malt scotch. But I guess I’m still white trash just because I smoke.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:18 amThe problem we have with smoking pregnant women is that at a very base animal level, those babies belong to us, to the continuation of our species. Most people would go well out of their way to protect a pregnant woman, that’s why seeing a pregnant woman harming herself and fetus is so infuriating. That’s just my feeling on the subject.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:24 amI was born in 1966, when people smoked cigarettes in cars, planes, offices, stores, theaters, parks, hotel lobbies, bars, schools, and even in common areas of churches. I don’t get worked up about cigarettes. I fully acknowledge, though, that it is far better if the mother to be does not smoke. Makes sense. What I hate is smokers flicking their butts on the ground. It’s littering, retard, and it’s also a fire hazard, dumbass!
I am far more opposed to male camel toe. An abomination that must be squashed.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:28 amNo Mighty Sam, You are.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:36 amI have to go with the “my mom did it” crowd. Ask any woman that is 60-70 years old now and I’d wager they ALL smoked and drank while pregnant. It annoys me too, but I think that as long as the kids are not physically/mentally abused and are taken care of (clean, fed, loved, etc.), they should be fine.
And I think the proper term is “moose-knuckle” for a guy.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:43 am1 - legally, yes. Morally, no, though out of concern for the fetus you’ll want to limit strikes with the clue-by-four to everything above the neck.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:44 am2 - because they’re too stupid/cheap to use birth contorl, or the man refuses to use condoms because he doesn’t like the feel. For some, babies are one of the unintended consequences of having unprotected sex.
3 - when the Revolution comes that the liberals are always talking about. On that glorious day, cigarettes will be declared illegal along with red meat, Ted Nugent, and earning more than $50K a year. Ironically, cigarettes won’t be as illegal as crack because the liberals will have legalized crack because of its historical association with the downtrodden peoples of America’s inner-cities.
4- It’s not so much the nut-squishing appearence. For my current theory, see the documentry “Idiocracy”.
4a- It’s quite unreasonable to call this a ‘man’. Refer to it as a male of the species, whatever that species turns out to be.
Random fact of the day:
Males with male parts in tact do not have . They have .(Links are to UrbanDictionary.com and are work-safe.)
As for the rest of it…I just don’t even know WHAT to say. Oy.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:44 amHi Rachel.
A billion dollars. I am pretty sure that that is a lot of money. I could probably afford to get a Rascal and a Segway for everyone in the family. Or I could simply pay someone to carry my little weakling (due to all the smoke) around if the smoke left them mentally or physically incapable of driving a scooter chair or the other thing.
Boy, I’d hate to come back from shopping and see that you saw ME and read what you thought about our lazy asses and Hansel & Gretel trail of beer cans showing the way back to our stretchlimotruckhumveestryker hybrid.
Hmmm. A billion dollars. I’d do it. Hell, I’d do a lot of things for a billion dollars. The least disgusting of which is probably smoking while pregnant.
A billion dollars. What else would I do for a billion dollars? Wow. I could say some really crude shit right now. I think the list is much shorter for what would I not do for a billion dollars. I think the main answer to that one is get caught. Which is to say anything if I don’t get caught. Wow. I’d better burn any high horse I have lying around. Cuz, I sure can’t sit on one. The opportunity to do great things with that kind of money justifies the means of obtaining it in so many circumstances.
As far as this unborn tyke, at least the kid is gonna be born. I wish I could pray human spirits into existence, but I am almost 100% sure it doesn’t work that way. Sure, ideally a mom-to-be shouldn’t smoke. Neither should parents. And all kids have free will, just like parents. I wonder if Babe Ruth’s mommy smoked? I think he did, and he is a legend. I wonder if Tiger could hit his driver straight had his mommy smoked? Or did she and that is why he is wild with his driver?
One could ask why have kids in this day and age at all? 2012 doomsday. Anti christ coming. Terror. EMF exposure. Earthquakes. Wars. Rumors of wars. Famine. Disease. Tornadoes. Hurricanes. Yellowstone super volcano. Etc Etc.
We can’t protect ourselves and our children from all of the dangers involved in living life. We just live it. And we can’t live on bread alone.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:56 amTurd Ferguson:
Check out definition #5 for a billion dollar “something to do”
This may be worksafe, Kit, but it’s DAMN dirty nonetheless. Ick.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:04 pmPage, do you have a citation for that bit about the salt?
May 19th, 2008 at 12:07 pmAnon,
Smoking doesn’t make you white trash.
An attitude like this, however, does. At least most people would think that’s what you are, given the nature of the statement.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:11 pmWow.
Adam Lawson, thanks for the Python lyrics! Just what I need on a Monday a.m. at the office.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:12 pmQuestion 1a. Is it wrong to punch said pregnant woman’s husband in the nuts or, um, almond joys?
May 19th, 2008 at 12:13 pmSo anon, I take it you think you’re ok to drive after a 6 pack because hey you’ve done it before and haven’t wrecked yes? Congratulations you took risks and your children didn’t suffer any effects. There is a risk to smoking and drinking while pregnant. Good job on the crap shoot, but you should still have decided not to roll the dice.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:27 pmBoth my parents smoked and drank—hell, they were both alcoholics—and my brother and I came out healthy and normal.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:29 pmWhat’s funny is that smoking crack while pregnant isn’t as bad as it was made out to be, either; unlike what everyone thought in the ’80s, “crack babies” aren’t instantly lost and violent, at least no more so than babies from parents that did other drugs (cocaine, marijuana, tobacco, alcohol). That’s not to say they turned out perfectly fine, mind you, but there was definitely some media-generated hysteria on the issue.
The trouble with doing drugs while pregnant is that, more often than not, they lead to low birth weight. This, in turn, leads to a whole host of other issues. The lower the birth rate, the greater the chance of something bad happening (congenital diseases and the like). Worse yet, most of the damage is done early in the pregnancy, frequently long before the mother even realizes that she is, in fact, a mother. For example, my ex used to smoke until she found out she was pregnant - she immediately stopped upon that discovery, but, due to her smoking after conception and before that discovery, the umbilical cord only had two vessels instead of the normal three, which meant that my first son had to be c-sectioned out as soon as practically possible.
That said, the risks are nowhere near absolute. My son is healthy and intelligent. If we start legislating anything out of existence that might pose a risk to a child (yeah, yeah - too late), we’re going to open up a can of worms that will overwhelm us all. For example, we’ll have to ban alcohol and tobacco from female consumption since using either of those products can lead to fetal damage immediately upon conception. We’ll also have to ban numerous food products (sorry, Rachel - no more Taco Bell).
Unfortunately, life is about balance - if we decide that a child’s rights are sacrosanct and inherently superior to the rights of any adult, we’re going to find a lot of adult freedoms curtailed and lowered in a “lowest common denominator” fashion so they don’t threaten children… and that’s probably not as good of an idea as it sounds on paper.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:30 pmMy favorite: Woman driving a car, smoking, with the windows rolled up, the kid in the front seat and not in a car seat or wearing a seatblet. Extra points for talking on a cell phone, and eating fast food, while you are smoking. I believe this type is just an outrageously accomplished non-thinker, not a person who hates her kid. But that’s small comsolation when she crashes and her kid ends up in the hospital. ‘My momma loves me, she’s just an unthinking ameoba, see, so it’s cool.” You can’t legislate common sense. You know, rereading that description just now, Brittney Spears came to mind. Only she could make K-fed look like Father of the Year material.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:31 pmI’m a cigarette baby and I’m t-t-totally nor- nor- normal.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:31 pmHeather,
May 19th, 2008 at 12:36 pmWhat I meant was, that no matter how perfectly a mother-to-be lives her life and watches every little thing she eats, drinks or inhales, there is still a chance that something could go wrong. I didn’t mean to sound as if I was superior for doing things wrong, the point was that some things such as birth defects or health problems can be out of our control. I guess it’s like my aunt who never drank, smoked, always ate healthy and exercised, but still died of cancer.
Anon,
I get your meaning, and I am glad you clarified your position for the readers of this forum.
You did, however, come across like buzzion says, your statements did sound morally superior: as if you were wagging your finger in the face of “fate, or god, or whatever”, and that just seems ignorant, trashy, and I daresay, like you’re asking for a smack-down.
The very thing that happened to your aunt took my mother in law — clean living: the cancer still got her at 63.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:46 pmThere’s no accounting for it, and I personally don’t believe in tempting an already off-kilter balance.
Really, you got that I would drive drunk from my post? That would be like leaving my gun cabinet unlocked and the guns loaded around my kids ‘cuz I never shot no one as a kid so they won’t either. I have never condoned drunk driving and have educated all of my kids as to gun safety and keep the guns unloaded and locked up.
I asked several doctors about drinking during pregnancy. All of them agreed that having one drink a day or less, and sticking to beer, wine or other low proof alcohol was not harmful and having a single beer at night was a better way to de-stress than taking tranquilizers or other drugs. I think during each pregnancy I had an average of 1-2 drinks per month, as every time I drank more than 1/2 a drink I would go to sleep. I do agree that drinking hard liquor or more than a couple beers a day could be harmful to the baby, although the only cases of kids with fetal alcohol syndrome I have seen came from mothers who were very heavy drinkers.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:48 pmThe Poster Formerly Known as Anonymous Now Temporarily Known as Squirrel Luvah Says:
I do not. I wish I did. It was something that I over heard on the news a long while back. I make no claims to the validity of the information, it was just something that stuck in my head.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:16 pmNo I found your statement about your smoking and drinking while pregnant to sound an awful lot like someone who gets drunk and proceeds to drive because they haven’t been in a wreck yet. You’re taking a risk that you shouldn’t have taken. Its called an analogy. But really just go ahead and roll the dice again I’m sure they’ll turn up 7 one more time.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:23 pmAre you sure it was salt and not caffiene?
May 19th, 2008 at 1:24 pmHere’s some info about salt:
May 19th, 2008 at 1:26 pmHeather,
May 19th, 2008 at 1:27 pmSomeday I will learn to write my thoughts so that my real meaning is clear the first time. Until then I guess I will have to continue to clarify. And for another clarification, I never did any of the “bad” things while pregnant just to tempt fate or whatever. Anyone who has ever smoked for very long can tell you how hard it is to quit even under the best circumstances, and I did try to cut back while pregnant. Trying to cut out junk food and only eat healthy food is also a big lifestyle change that both pregnant and non-pregnant women struggle with. Personally I feel that the mother’s who yak on their cell phone while doing 80 mph on I-10 with the kiddies hopping around loose in the back have more potential of their kids being harmed than the pregnant mother who has a couple drinks.
I’d be very curious to see the correlation between people who are outraged when a pregnant mother smokes and those who are outraged at the suggestion that abortion be illegal.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:30 pmQuestion 3: (This’ll make you real happy, Rachel)
Using crack (or any drug) is actually penalized LESS vigorously when one is pregnant than not. The rationale? Reporting such use to the authorities- or even testing for substance abuse- is thought to make drug-using mothers avoid prenatal care altogether. And it’s true. All the drug-abusers who want to keep on using go to one clinic in my city, the ones who want help go to a different one (where they test for drugs). None, however, will be reported to Child Protective Services or to the police.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:39 pmHeather (and everyone else),
I didn’t realize there was more to the almond joy page. I only saw the first three definitions and made sure there were no offensive pictures. I would not have linked if I had read the page more carefully. My sincere apologies. Numbers 4 and 5 were indeed nasty.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:41 pmAnon,
Again, thanks. I have read your posts here before and was sure you weren’t a completly selfish bitch.
I realize you were indignant at the sanctimonious attitudes of others in re: the crack statement, but in trying to *explain* you came across to me as if you were arguing some bad habits are okay to subject a fetus to, while others are just verboten. Perhaps our parents did these things: I’d like to think we are enlightened enough as adults to not make the “little Johny did it and he’s okay so whay can’t I” self-centered-I’m-a-whiny-twelve-year-old-argument. We are now aware of the dangers, and pretending they do not exist is no justification, period.
If it’s any consolation, I agree with you that anything done in moderation under the advice and monitoring of a physician is better than unmonitored hedonism due to the selfish whims of the individual carrying the fetus.
And for the record, I never argued that a couple of drinks/smokes were bad, good or indifferent. I simply said your argument sounded trashy.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:42 pmKit,
May 19th, 2008 at 1:46 pmI was kind of wondering where you work : )
Smoking and drinking while pregnant drives up the risk factor. If you are comfortable with the risk, then you will face the results. You may have a healthy child, you may not. But it does drive up the risk factor.
I reserve my right to think you are a dumb b*tch for doing so while pregnant. And of course, you also have the right think me a dumb b*tch for judging you.
I don’t think people who think it’s ok to smoke and drink while pregnant (and continue to insist it is via anecdotes) are going to be convinced.
Someone said it before: the plural of anecdote is not data.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:00 pmOkay, how? How am I wrong?
There are countless cases throughout history of children born severely impaired because their mother “occasionally” had a drink.
THAT is why doctors tell mothers to never drink or smoke. Because no one knows for sure how much will cause a birth defect.
So how am I wrong?
May 19th, 2008 at 2:09 pmThose “doctors” might want to double-check that advice with .
May 19th, 2008 at 2:16 pmOf course, what tips the whole scene off for me is the flicking of the cigarettes to the ground at the end. God Almighty, how I hate littering.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:33 pmI do not endorse pregnant women smoking. But, I must say that all those baby boomers who were produced by their smoking mothers between 1946 and 1964 makes me think there is something NOT be taken into consideration when investigating the relationship between a pregnant woman smoking and what happens to her unborn foetus as a result of the smoking.
There sure as hell were a bunch of boomers who went on to colleges and universities at a time when matriculating was not done on the basis of one’s political correctness. And, at least SOME of them must have been the product of their smoking mothers. So, there must have been enough brain cells NOT destroyed by smoking mothers.
Makes me wonder exactly how the research on pregnancy, foetus and smoking mother was conducted. And, who paid for the results, er I mean the research.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:39 pmOh, and might I add that I used to smoke. Quit a half-dozen years ago and encourage ANYone who smokes to stop. If you haven’t started . . . DON’T!!!
But, let’s keep the research clean. Not filled with bias for or against something.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:41 pmI’m thinking I’ll wait till I’m 50 or so to take it up. Looking at it, smoking normally takes 30-50 years to kill you (depending on how heavy your use), so if I start at 50, I’ll probably be killed by something else.
Plus, it seems an effective way to spend my retirement fund ;).
May 19th, 2008 at 3:48 pmThe meaning in the sentence of ‘occasionally’ is infrequent, not habitual, or regular. Given that meaning, I defy you to find one instance of it causing severe defects–You can’t because there aren’t any.
Yes, it is good advice not to drink or smoke, because some folks view occasionally differently, such as, well…12:01 is an occasion, and 12:10 is another occasion, and by golly, 12:25 is still another occasion.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:49 pmMy mom smoked and drank, and we’re all okay except for the autoimmune disorders, psychiatric problems, and autism. But other than that, we’re just hunky dorry.
May 19th, 2008 at 4:02 pmOr possibly French?
May 19th, 2008 at 4:38 pmI bet drinking and smoking a little while pregnant is less harmful then epidurals and vaccinations. I’m just saying.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:06 pm“Occasionally” can mean anything the speaker wants it to mean.
I knew a guy in college who only drank “occasionally” which to him meant “ten beers minimum at every party, but other than that no drinking”.
And you know this how?
I defy you to find one instance where someone got into a car accident while wearing a rubber chicken tied to his head. Can you find one? You can’t, can you? By golly, I think I just proved that tying a rubber chicken to your head prevents car accidents!
From the Surgeon General:
“We do not know what, if any, amount of alcohol is safe. But we do know that the risk of a baby being born with any of the fetal alcohol spectrum disorders increases with the amount of alcohol a pregnant woman drinks, as does the likely severity of the condition. And when a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, so does her baby. Therefore, it’s in the child’s best interest for a pregnant woman to simply not drink alcohol.”
So, is he wrong too?
May 19th, 2008 at 5:10 pmSam, Sam, Mighty Sam,
It was you that said:
So now you are saying you can’t site one. Is that because you are wearing a rubber chicken on your head?
Of course not, I said the essentially the same thing.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:26 pmAm I the only one here who just wants to know what you and Rupert bought at Circuit City? If they had to bring it out to the car, I’m guessing it’s a big flatscreen TV.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:40 pmRachel, .
May 19th, 2008 at 5:45 pmSteve, that’s a classic. LOL
May 19th, 2008 at 6:01 pmI’m with LifeofReilley: what could Rachel possibly be getting at Circuit City, and how on earth was Circuit City the place with the best deal? Around here, they have the absolute highest markups of any electronics store.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:02 pmBy the way, my pet peeve about smokers is when they hold the cigarette out their car windows at a traffic light. If they don’t want the smoke and smell inside with them, why do they feel justified subjecting the rest of us to it instead?
May 19th, 2008 at 6:05 pmFirst of all it’s “cite” not “site”.
Secondly, how can I cite a case when you have yet to define what “occasionally” means? What is that, 3 light drinks a day, 1 per meal? Two drinks a day? One drink a week except on holidays?
The only one of us to cite any facts so far is me. And my facts say “it’s in the child’s best interest for a pregnant woman to simply not drink alcohol.”
No, you said “Having an occasional cig or drink does not destroy babies”.
Not “probably won’t” but “does not“.
You made an absolute statement that directly contradicts the advice the the United States Surgeon General.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:09 pmIsn’t Circuit City going out of business? Perhaps there are bargains to be had.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:31 pmSam, A man’s best friend is supposed to be his dog, not his dogma. Your obvious delight in twisting meaning and words is a reflection of your dogmatic approach to the world.
You also need to read for context as well as content. I responded
Not to your quote but to the Surgeon General’s quote:
I am not contradicting the Surgeon General. Remember he said:
That clearly does not say a drink will destroy babies, as you seem to imply. You are so far ‘fact-less.’ Why don’t you CITE a Site with all of your dogmatic information that would prove an occasional cigarette or a drink will destroy a baby.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:45 pmIn your next attempt at discussion, try communicating a thought instead of twisting words, arguing semantics, or playing ‘one-ups manship.”
Hey anonymous,
Get a username or get lost, asshole. God damn, I hate you “anonymous” people. I want to puch YOU in the face for being anonymous. Unfortunately, my threat is useless, since you’re anonymous and I don’t know who you are. DAMN!!!!
Yes, I’m cranky, as a matter of fact I smoked my last cigarette last tuesday. 23 years of smoking, and I’m finally finished. And yeah, it sucks big time. I went to the gym tonight and worked my arms into spaghetti, ran on the treadmill until I almost puked, and I still feel like a cigraette would “take the edge off”.
This tobaco is powerful stuff, but if I can quit for my wife, I think this smoking mommy can quit for her baby. What a stupid whore.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:09 pmI smoked the entire time I was pregnant with both my kids, and it was probably a good thing being that they were both 8 lbs. If that gave them low birth weight, they’d have been 10 pounds if I hadn’t.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:14 pmI do remember the doctor blaming tight levi’s for the amount of c sections that were being performed at the time though. (Young girls wearing tight levi’s were not allowing their hips to develop large enough to get the babies heads through.) My point being, it’s always something, and yet the human race goes on.
Hey Bad Penny …
Good idea. Maybe I’ll run on down to the Circuit City super sale and look for a bulk bargain on friggin clues … : )
May 19th, 2008 at 7:20 pmMy mother smoked three and sometimes FOUR packs/day when pregnant with me (early 60s) and I was normal weight and no health problems at all growing up.
In fact, most of the kids I knew in the neighborhood, and all of my relatives had smoking mothers who didn’t quit during pregnancy.
For all the hysteria about smoking killing all these poor babies, I’ve yet to see anything happen in 40-some years…
My cousin’s ObGyn told her to keep it to half-a-pack a day or less and eat a sensible diet and baby should be fine (he was - 9 pounds LOL).
May 19th, 2008 at 7:29 pmMay 19th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Damn, Para, you beat me to the sale!
May 19th, 2008 at 7:40 pmPara, I know I’m supposed to care but I don’t honestly care one whit.
As for:
“This tobaco is powerful stuff, but if I can quit for my wife, I think this smoking mommy can quit for her baby. ”
Grow a pair and quit for yourself lest your kind and gentle lockbox become a permanent feature of your pants.
And yet again…
Mind. Your. Own. Damn. Business.
This endlessly mewing self-rightousness about what other people should or should not be doing is what makes Democrat Twinks possible.
Sack up, man.
May 19th, 2008 at 8:25 pmVanderleun,
I gotta admit dude , you completely lost me.
Try that again.
The debate here is whether it is alright for someone to feel the urge to punch a pregnant woman in the face for smoking.
Now, I said that this is topical for me , as I just quit smoking last week, and as much as it sucks ( the addictive nature of nicotine is more powerful than herion)I’m willing to quit at the request of my lovely wife, therefore I find it difficult that a mother wouldn’t quit smoking for he health of her yet to be born brat.
Where you get Democrat mumbo-jumbo, and self- righteousness out of that is beyond me dude.
What does that even mean? Am I supposed to quit for my own good rather than the good of my wife? Well, honestly, I have never been on efor self preservation. All those years of jumping out of aircraft gave me a feeling that any day could be my last, to wit, I never really worry about “living to a ripe old age” , however, my wife has requested I make it to 70 years old, and since I dig her a bunch, I will grant her request.
Does that make me sackless? Seriously, I never thought of it that way, in fact I’m the most sack-full guy I know.
Did I mention I was itching to punch someone in the face?
May 19th, 2008 at 8:50 pmI started going to the gym about a year ago.
I learned that I like smoking a hell of a lot more than exercising. A HELL of a lot more.
I do try to wait until I’m out of the parking lot to light up, though.
May 19th, 2008 at 9:59 pmHere’s another concern for pregnant moms.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:12 pmcknight Says:
By the way, my pet peeve about smokers is when they hold the cigarette out their car windows at a traffic light. If they don’t want the smoke and smell inside with them, why do they feel justified subjecting the rest of us to it instead?
May 19th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
And that smoke somehow makes a beeline right up your nose? Do you roll your windows up tight when you fart in the car? No? How dare you subject the rest of us to YOUR stinkiness?
sheesh.
Yes, I’m a smoker and tired of being treated like a leper. Michigan is about to enact the no smoking anywhere law, and it’s pissing me off.
/cranky mode off
May 20th, 2008 at 8:32 amMy mom chain smoked through all eight pregnancies. She’d rest her ashtray on her big tummy and when on she was on oxygen in the hospital, the nurses would come in and turn it off so she could have a smoke break.
We’re all fine, healthy middle-aged adults, and my mom (and dad) are still alive. Smoking is a filthy, disgusting, life-threatening habit and the best thing about my mom’s smoking is that it made me hate smoking, forever and ever, amen.
May 20th, 2008 at 8:47 amPara
The link to the Surgeon General’s site wouldn’t have data on what qualifies as “smoking”, would it?
It seems that there should be different results based on half a pack a day versus four packs a day.
About the mother smoking. I don’t have strong feelings. Lots of different thoughts though.
1. It’s too bad that she wasn’t able to break the addiction. I know from a friend of mine how hard that can be, especially when there’s another smoker around to tempt you to start again.
2. I don’t want to punch the young mothers and mothers-to-be that I see smoking. I feel the same way about them that I do about people with obviously obese children: They should be able to do something to take care of the problem.
3. Not all the problems with smoking come from nicotine. Check out the statistics on snus.
4. It’s very easy to get stuck on the things people do wrong and let them outweigh what they’re doing right.
5. I would never date someone who smokes; it’s a deal-killer, completely unattractive.
I guess that’s it.
May 20th, 2008 at 8:57 amI don’t know about the “Almond Joy” description, I always knew women who wore pants/spandex/etc so tight that you could “read their lips” were refered to as “Camel Toe”, and men that were doing the same were showing “Moose Knuckles”. Of course, that guy probably didn’t have enough junk to show any knuckle…
May 20th, 2008 at 10:36 amAs a child of the 50’s my Mom smoked through my 9 month stay.
Am I retarded …I don’t think so.
Am I as smart/healthy/happy as I might have been….that unfortunately I will never know.
I do know she smoked though all 8 of her pregnancys, and four of my siblings are now dead.
Two by lung cancer, one by a brain tumor and one by accidental cause.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:41 amPeople seem to forget that human beings have been successfully reproducing for thousands and thousands of years in conditions far more hostile than anything a cigarette or two is likely to do to a child. Yet here we are. Amazing, huh?
The reality is that, as a society, we have become obsessed with legislating and moralizing other people’s behaviors that we don’t personally approve of despite the fact that American exceptionalism is based on the fact that we, as citizens, have always had the right to choose what is right for ourselves and our families free from government (and busybody) influence.
Now you holier-than-thou types think you have the right to destroy everything this country has ever stood for with your constant need to stick your nose in other people’s business “for the good of the children.” Isn’t that where every government entitlement program that has ever been shoved down our throats and the whole concept of “political correctness” gets its justification?
For every behavior I have that you don’t like, I can name two that you have that are equally, if not more, harmful and for which I think you should either be locked up and/or have your children taken away from you for engaging in them. (And yes that especially includes you vegetarians…don’t even get me started on your choices, suffice it to say that humans are omnivorous for a reason…) Is this really a road you want to go down?
Sooner or later, it’s your ox that’s going to get gored and who will be left to complain to then? Oh that’s right…all the other people whose behavior you were so insistent on legislating just the day before they turned it back on you.
You made your choices as to which risks you are willing to accept and which ones you choose to rationalize away, but you want to deny others the same freedom of choice that you enjoy.
Do we know for a fact anything more than the woman had *A* cigarette? No…but based on that there have been a ton of assumptions about her, her family, her education, her upbringing, etc., and you don’t see anything completely and utterly over-the-top absolutely wrong with your judgmentalism and holier-than-thou attitudes?
There’s a whole bunch of people here who frankly need to get over themselves when it comes to judging what other people are doing based on a 30-second (at most) observation of their lives.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:36 pmQ1 Always, unless they are trying to hurt their unborn children…and you are the pregnant girl’s mom.
May 20th, 2008 at 3:57 pmQ2 Totally agree with the ‘lazy’ answers, they don’t hate their kids. It is just that quitting is too much effort and by percentage, as has been said, there is only an increased risk. You roll the dice every time you get pregnant. Just caring seems like it is too much work for many people today.
Q3 When tobacco is made illegal. Women’s rights will see to that. Besides, I haven’t heard any studies or even individual anecdotes say that crack in moderation is okay for babies.
Q4 If you were a sperm in those pants, you would be aggressively seeking to get out of there too!
Q4A Not sure I get this one. According to most of the commentors today there were very few ‘men’ between the 1930s and the 1970s. I would have said there were more ‘men’ in those years than in the immasculated 80s through today, but I guess that is just me. Yes my dad and both grandfathers were smokers. I have never respected his choice to smoke and drink the way he did, but I always thought he was a man.
Jim, wow. you really know how to rip us a new one. and we deserve it.
I guess it’s fun to complain about other people. But when we do, we really are complaining about our own failings - our inability to drop bad habits. Or our loathing of a person that is representative of someone closer to us in our own life that has the same traits.
thanks for providing a fresh perspective than the usual ego ego ego i am better than you.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:10 pmJim,
I smoke occasionally.
I quit through all three pregnancies, didn’t cheat, and don’t smoke anywhere near my kids, friends or family. I smoke in a quiet place away from everyone, becuase it is my quiet time.
And I hate having my morality legislated.
That said, I hate even more ignorant people whose actions threaten the lives of innocents when they absolutely HAVE to know better. It’s not like that kid can get up and move away, you know. For me, the rights of the individual end where the rights of the “person” unable to fend for itself begin. That’s what being a parent is all about.
Just my thoughts, and thanks for the reality check on how personal judgments can affect responses — it’s almost Pavlovian, isn’t it?
May 20th, 2008 at 4:28 pmOh yeah? Sez you. So what? Here’s a long rough cob fer yr new one.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:28 pm“…therefore I find it difficult that a mother wouldn’t quit smoking for he health of her yet to be born brat.”
To clarify, *your* difficulty is not somebody else’s *requirement.*
You are not required to give a shit. You are required to not give a shit.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:31 pmJim
Good points.
For the record, I don’t think we should legislate out selves out of this issue. It’s a choice thing and I dig it, man.
I do however, reserve the right to say;
“How’s that cigarette, you pregnant piece of shit !?”
to any smoking pregnant person I see.
I know I’ll be paying for the littel brat’s healthcare with my taxes anyway, so I might a well get my shot it in at the stupid whore who is smoking while preggers.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:56 pmQuestion 4:
Cracked me up, because on the sheepdog trial circuit, a “gigantic gold belt buckle” is often given as a championship award. I’ve heard more than one trialist tease another that his buckle was a “tombstone for a dead ****!”
Question 3:
May 20th, 2008 at 6:00 pmI’m afraid I’m with the civil libertarian side on this one, as long as tobacco is legal. Personally, I can’t fathom why anyone would smoke cigarettes, least of all while pregnant, but we have to be free to fail in order to be free to succeed, right?
You have a very charming manner of speaking, Para.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:53 pmActually, I hadn’t heard “almond joy” before for the male version of the camel toe. I have heard “camel tail”, though.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:44 pmYeah, who are they to choose what they do? I mean you know better and should, if required, use violence over it. Someone overweight having that extra hamburger? Why it’s fine for you and the other perfect posters here to walk up and take a hammer to his skull.
Get over yourself. I dislike smoking, but because some woman, even with child, might have one now and then,doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world or that I will be forced to pay for their lung transplant. Yes, it’s wrong, but so might be your choice of diet, what you drive, how high is your thermostat right now? How much energy does your computer use when you keep your blog up?
There is too much the inherent facist in people these days and the road to total government control (hell) is paved with good intentions.
[Actually TiminPhx, I am perfect. My diet is perfect, I drive the perfect car, and I don’t even HAVE a thermostat because I am that in tune with perfection. My blog is powered by solar panels, of course. I don’t even BREATHE because I think it’s wrong to contribute to global warming. And I’m just as serious about all of this as I was about using violence against that woman. LIGHTEN UP, PAL. Honestly, you’d think people would know better than to read blogs if they’re this snitty about someone expressing a goddamn opinion. Love, Rachel]
May 21st, 2008 at 1:39 pmMaybe I’m still a little cranky because I just quit smoking 8 days ago and then Rachel, goes and blogs about smoking right there in the open where she KNOWS I’m going to read it because I come to this site 10 times a day and…….
Okay, I’m going to the gym, I gotta run off this creepy feeling of wanting to smoke.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:31 pmYeah, yeah Para –
When they find the center of the universe, it will be YOU : )
May 21st, 2008 at 4:32 pmLIGHTEN UP, PAL. Honestly, you’d think people would know better than to read blogs if they’re this snitty about someone expressing a goddamn opinion. Love, Rachel]
Now take all that you wrote and apply it to your own comment in response to my comment.
If anyone, I mean you are the Quasi-Pro Blogger, can’t you be the one to take a comment and not get all snitty about it? I’m just a poor country poster, so I can’t help it, but there you go doing what you accuse me of. Think Decaff, unless you drink only the water that falls in a forest and off a tree in your perfect world.
love, hugs, kisses and even that return call the next morning…Tim
[Jesus Christ, Tim. You do realize don’t you that your first comment was the exact “crime” you accused me of. What business is it of yours if I don’t like pregnant smokers? No more than it’s my business not to like them. We could go on and on around this into eternity if you like. Love, Rachel]
May 21st, 2008 at 6:47 pmMy sister and I turned out all right, in spite of the ‘rents smoking, even when pregnant, even in closed cars. I never have smoked, but I have an addicted wife. My question to you, in light of what you had to say about those 3 poor-witness Christians: Do you think that anything you would have had to say to anyone, especially that couple, would cause them to stop smoking?
[NO! Which is why I DIDN”T SAY ANYTHING TO THEM. Love, Rachel]
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:31 am