It’s Friday and you know what that means.
Updated with Hidden Gusset Award!
Open thread! And probably lots of comments trapped in moderation until I get back. As ever, remember, it just means you’re loved. But you’re also loved if your comment doesn’t go to moderation. You’re loved because you’re just so darn cute in all your hillbilly racistness.
Some possible topics below, but first:
We found the doll while walking the other morning. Sunny keyed on it lying there in the dirt and I figure, the little kid who last touched it must have had pork juice on her fingers. So I brought it home and put it on Sunny’s head, but it kept falling off, but hey, at least I got a shot of her looking like her ear has been replaced with a doll. That’s art, people. Learn to recognize it.
So. A Tennessee State rep’s (Democrat) son is allegedly of Sarah Palin’s email account. I’m shocked, I tell you, just SHOCKED.
Also, he’s a total moron. Ace to the little psycho’s blog and it’s really quite…something.
And if you’re in the mood for more horrifying statements that sound right out of Hitler’s maw, a “highly respected British ethicist” who is also “Britain’s leading moral philosopher”:
The veteran Government adviser said pensioners in mental decline are “wasting people’s lives” because of the care they require and should be allowed to opt for euthanasia even if they are not in pain.
She insisted there was “nothing wrong” with people being helped to die for the sake of their loved ones or society.
The 84-year-old added that she hoped people will soon be “licensed to put others down” if they are unable to look after themselves. …
Lady Warnock said: “If you’re demented, you’re wasting people’s lives – your family’s lives – and you’re wasting the resources of the National Health Service.
“I’m absolutely, fully in agreement with the argument that if pain is insufferable, then someone should be given help to die, but I feel there’s a wider argument that if somebody absolutely, desperately wants to die because they’re a burden to their family, or the state, then I think they too should be allowed to die.
“Actually I’ve just written an article called ‘A Duty to Die?’ for a Norwegian periodical. I wrote it really suggesting that there’s nothing wrong with feeling you ought to do so for the sake of others as well as yourself.”
I worked at a nursing home, with dozens of demented patients. I know all about how much of a burden it is to care for these people. But arguments like this are an actual, genuine slippery slope. How can you not go from here to “putting down” every single person who “can’t look after themselves”? Coma patients, people in vegetative states, the insane, hospice patients, I could go on and on. This is precisely the kind of thinking, in my view, that made the Holocaust possible.
And in case you’re curious, I support voluntary euthanasia. If I’m terminally ill and I want to kill myself, that’s nobody’s business. I’d just like to be able to make the choice myself, thanks. (And if I can’t, that’s what Medical Directives and Medical Powers of Attorney are for.)
Okay. Have fun today. I gotta go do a lab experiment involving copper oxide and molar mass or percent composition, or something like that. I don’t know, my brain hurts.
UPDATE: All of your comments are excellent - seriously, the comments are 80% of the value of this blog at least - but sometimes someone just writes something that makes me snorfle out my nose uncontrollably, which compels me to single them out for special recognition. Today it was Marc:
That doll is the current girl toy from MacDonald’s - Dorothy, from the Wizard of Oz. I know this because my hillbilly wife didn’t get all her abortions.
That’s just funny, perfectly contextual, and downright snorftastic. And it deserves:
I call “dibs” on being the one to decide
September 19th, 2008 at 9:09 amESTOrdinary people can’t be trusted to make the correct choice in these types of matters. It’s best left to the government to decide who lives and who dies.
Wait a minute . . . hasn’t this been tried before?
September 19th, 2008 at 9:33 amESTHas anyone besides me ever noticed that most of the ardent supporters of abortion are also opposed to capital punishment? That pro life people oppose abortion, but tend to favor capital punishment? I note that the abortion rights crowd seems to favor killing the innocent, while the pro-life camp wants to protect the innocent while executing the guilty?
September 19th, 2008 at 9:34 amESTI wonder if the voluntary euthanasia issue can be connected with gun rights? True, it’d be messy, but if you have the right to own a gun, and the right to take someone’s life when that someone is threatening you or yours (both are rights I support), it’s kinda hard to argue that you don’t have the right and ability to take your own life, isn’t it?
No flaming, guys - I’m curious, not baiting here.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:35 amEST/me buys more ammo
September 19th, 2008 at 9:38 amEST“put others down” seriously? A real person actually SAID that?
September 19th, 2008 at 9:40 amESTSounds to me like the Baroness should set the example.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:42 amESTShe’s 84? She’s almost certainly a net drain on society then and should seek euthanasia for herself. If she doesn’t agree then that’s just evidence that her mental faculties have declined to the point where she can’t make that decision for herself.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:47 amESTWell, as long as we are having a random Open Thread….
Cats may be Assholes, but !!!!
Enjoy!
September 19th, 2008 at 9:47 amESTI am not opposed per se to people being allowed to die (whatever that may mean), but a licensed medical doctor should never be allowed to do such a thing.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:51 amESTCreate a special class of executioner, psycho-the-rapist, or whatnot, but MDs should be prohibited from purposefully taking lives.
lissa: gun rights are tied to self-defense, i.e., the preservation of innocent life. some would have you believe self-defense and gun rights are all about killing the bad guy. but they’re not. they’re about keeping the good people safe. if the bad guy gets shot and dies, well, it would have been great if he saw the error of his ways before attacking, and it’s unfortunate he’ll no longer have the opportunity to start doing the right thing.
with suicide… well, sure anyone can put a bullet in their own noggin for whatever twisted reason, but abilities do not equal rights.
the point that rachel’s making goes even further: this “highly respected british ethicist” is a blink of an eye away from state-sanctioned cleansing of undesirables. and that’s the ultimate argument here. if we start saying people have a “right” to suicide (i.e., that it’s an acceptable thing to do), there’s not much logical gymnastics that need to happen for an obama health “care” system to say people have to stop being a drain on society so we’re going to kill you. it’ll be tax-payer funded so it’ll appear to be free, though. and i’m sure biden will make the argument that it’s patriotic for families to kill their elderly parents or Down syndrome children.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:54 amESTI’m gonna drop a few items into the Open Thread:
Sandra Bernhard went on an almost-incoherent rant against Sarah Palin in a show sponsored by a in NY. The link is swamped with Drudge traffic, so here’s the gist if you can’t get to it:
. This link is chock-full of crazy, so enjoy:
Just, wow.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:57 amESTSounds like Hitler is alive and well…
I think the slippery slope is who decides who is undesirable? I only have one kidney…I stuttered as a child…was born with messed up legs that had to be broken,and reset.Which also meant my parents had to have someone carry me everywhere as a child,as both legs were in casts.I also was born with 2 kidneys and one lacked in fucntioning.So I had to use the skills of surgeons at DC Children’s Hospital.I have since had ONE VISIT to the ER for a kidney infection.
So who gets to decide if I should stay or go?
That is what frightens me.That parents could see someone like me and decide Im too much of a financial and medical burden to them.That putting me through speech therapy would be too much or helping me recover from a very NORMAL surgery at 10 yrs old would be too much.
So just abort my ass,and have a malibu barbie with perfect teeth and hair…haha.(I also had braces as a teen,and it never fully fixed my teeth…I now need verneers.)
So screwed up.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:02 amESTRe Lady Warnock - why doesn’t this 84-year- old “ethicist” follow her own advice? Talk about being a burden on society, this dame is a real load. Seriously, in Britain you have a country where it is unethical to execute criminals, but it is OK to off unborn children as the preferred form of birth control, and now, according to their official ethicist, to off inconvenient old people. This is straight out of Germany in the 1930’s.
As for our Hacker, the valiant young Kernell, expect the alphabet networks and the major “news”papers to turn the little [feces] into a persecuted hero. According to his e-message he has been institutionalized twice for depression. Sounds almost as if he was advised in advance to lay the groundwork for a defense claiming diminished capacity: “Yer honor, I am nutz! This was bigger’n both of me! And moreover, my mind got way warped when I read the Daily Kos and Zsa Zsa Huffington!”
September 19th, 2008 at 10:03 amESTYes…the Lady Warnock to the top of the list!
September 19th, 2008 at 10:09 amESTHow about, I don’t know, trying to find a “$%=)&/$# cure since it’s a “$%=)&/$# illness?!
We buried my maternal grandma on my last birthday. We had lost her to dementia about ten years before: during that time, we often hoped her pain would come to an end soon, yet that day was incredibly painful for my mother and me.
We loved her.
I’m willing to bet that if “Lady” What’s-her-name started coming down with any form of dementia, she would’t off herself - oh no, she would deny there’s anything wrong with her with every breath. She always knows better.
What chills me, apart from her position, is that she sounds very much like my other grandmother.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:16 amESTI apologize for the not-exactly-coherent post
At 84, perhaps Lady Warnock is already a bit demented. She should off herself immediately.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:18 amESTThose hysterical harpies who hate Sarah Palin are laughable. So much for their “progressive” politics of tolerance and diversity.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:27 amESTI can’t believe I’m actually bringing this up as a reference. If there are any Star Trek TNG fans out there, there was an episode where they enountered a group of people who all killed themselves at age 65. It was considered a great honor, and a way to keep the population down. I remember being mildly freaked out by it - but I’m not sure if it’s because it made me think of a mandatory euthanasia or if it’s because it was STAR TREK that made me think it.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:29 amESTOkay, I’m off to take my daughter to school. I will be back in a few hours to check in on all your hillbilly racistness then. And to see how many old people we’re planning to “put down.”
September 19th, 2008 at 10:29 amESTThe inevitable conclusion of socialism is that the government can condemn someone to death for wasting government resources.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:30 amESTBrooke, the TNG episode was called “Half a Life” - for obvious reasons.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:31 amESTRedhead Infidel - Margaret Cho has a rant on Sarah Palin, as well. And, quite frankly, it is crude and NOT the LEAST bit funny. Weasel Zippers has it posted at his site:
September 19th, 2008 at 10:34 amESTre: the cute widdle doggie picture.
Rachel needs to find a scuffed up doll of the same size ( maybe missing an arm or the head) and then it could be the angel and devil wispering in Sunny’s ear.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:37 amESTcutey puppay
September 19th, 2008 at 10:47 amESTI’m starting to wonder if we shouldn’t begin evacuating the remaining sane Brits and then blockade the country until the insane lunatics there eat each other. Is there anyone left in Great Britain with an ounce of rational intellect??
Anyhoo, all this talk about chemistry brings back bad memories of high school. Chemistry was the only subject I have ever utterly failed at. The basic concepts were easy, but the calculations and formulas brought me to tears more times than I care to remember. Rachel, hang tough; I’m sure you’ll do better than I did
September 19th, 2008 at 10:48 amEST“Lady Warnock”
We had a revolution to get rid of people like her.
So much of European and, (with apologies to Rachel’s Brit readers) occasionally British, behavior can be explained by a crucial difference between our cultures:
North America was settled by people who were overwhelmingly small freeholders and small merchants, while Europe retains many of the attitudes and expectations of a noble-and-peasant culture.
Even though kings, nobles and priests have been replaced with social-democratic politicians, bureaucrats and academics, the idea that elites know best and will “take care of” the masses is still very much alive.
Hence, the cradle-to-grave benefit programs, the economic and social micromanagement, the reservation of legal violence (and the tools of violence) to the agents of the state, the stifling of political debate on subjects and ideas ruled “out of bounds” by the elites.
Is it any surprise that Baroness Warnock feels empowered to recommend when the Queen’s subjects should “stop living”? Is there any more definite way to raise the State above the individual than the power declare the individual a “drain on the resources of society” and pressure family and health-care providers to euthanize them?
I’m sure the 84-year-old Baronness sees no irony in this, for the elderly of the elites will surely be kept alive as long as possible…
September 19th, 2008 at 10:50 amESTI keep telling you, scratch a leftist, find a fascist.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:51 amESTHurricane pron!
That’s 2 blocks from my house.
That’s about 1/4 mile from my house.
Constable that lives across the street from me said they had mini tornados, that’s why we have severe damage only in spots, then what I’d call moderate damage everywhere else.
According to the Houston Chronicle almost 50% of the people in the greater Houston area - we’re talking around a 4 million population, so about 2 million people here alone - still have no power. We haven’t had regular groceries like milk and cheese in the stores until this morning, the local Kroger got some eggs and milk and butter.
Its been a week. I had no idea it would take so long to have something as simple as butter and cheese back in the stores.
Gud thang uz hillbillyz nos how to lif of the lan an al.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:55 amEST“Half a Life” (guest starring David Ogden Stiers and Majel Barrett Roddenberry).
Yes, big TNG fan here. (Even bigger fan of DS9.)
As I recall, Dr. Timicin decided to off himself in the end; he couldn’t bear to cause his family shame, he didn’t want to be ostracized and he realized that his society would not accept, no matter how important, the work of someone who defied the custom.
We just need to keep something similar from getting started here.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:57 amESTJust when you need it most
H/T to and for the Picture
September 19th, 2008 at 10:59 amESTVoluntary euthanasia is suicide, and suicide is always wrong.
Anyone who’s been around dying people knows the final time is the most astonishing and transformative. While the body withers, the spirit shines through. There are hospital angels (wish I remembered the link) who volunteer to sit with the dying who have no family. Families who are “burdened” with dying Alzheimers or cancer patients find themselves stronger, more blessed and loving than those “lucky” ones who don’t.
To cut short that process, to tell God that you know better and you’re going to end your own life, is the ultimate in arrogance and hubris. It is wrong. I don’t believe in suffering — that’s why God created the versatile and lovely poppy — but ending your own life at any stage is suicide.
That’s why we Christians traditionally bury suicides and murderers outside of consecrated ground. In our religion, there’s no difference between self murder and murder of another. It’s all murder.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:03 amESTWearyman - I LOLed on that vid.
On the Palin hacking, I find it appalling that the news isn’t more concentrated on the criminal aspect of this. Not shocked, but I still figured that there would be more coverage of the CRIME involved. I hope that the feds throw the book at that 20 year old idiot.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:06 amESTA few things.
That doll is the current girl toy from MacDonald’s - Dorothy, from the Wizard of Oz. I know this because my hillbilly wife didn’t get all her abortions.
As far as “duty to the state”, screw that. Stupid British are almost a lost cause.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:15 amESTRemember in (2002-ish?) when some letters indicating collusions between Ill Annoy’s own senator Dick Durbin (plus I think Teddy the Swimmer Kennedy) and outside groups to delay judicial nomination hearings for a circuit court where some affirmative action case was going to be heard?
Except for a little at the beginning all you heard about on the news was the illegality of accessing the democrat’s server, excoriation of the Republican ’staffers’ who publicized the mail (apparently the servers were not secured). Neither of the two ever faced a real hearing, or got so much as a slap on the wrist.
Did you really expect the same treatment for the heroic scion of a democratic servant of the people braving the wrath of the mouthbreathing gun-crazed VRWC to release the truthiness about the eviiil Palin?
September 19th, 2008 at 11:20 amESTGood God. This “ethicist” has to be the most tactless person on the face of the Earth. I don’t even believe in euthanasia and I can think of at least seven different ways she could have phrased that WITHOUT sounding like a psychotic Hitler-wannabe.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:21 amESTBonnie,
I respect your opinion and really only differ in that suicide is generally brought on by someone who id depressed - and severe depression is an illness. So I tend not to classify people who commit suicide with people who commit homicide.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:23 amESTOMG! I can hardly breath for laughing so hard! Freaking amazing video! Thanks for that!
September 19th, 2008 at 11:34 amESTHeh. Star Trek is and always has been the MASTER of sledgehammer moral messages.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:38 amESTHopefully there are no spelling errors this time…
September 19th, 2008 at 11:42 amESTYou people are so fucking hilarious! I feel honored to be in your company!
I needed a couple of good laughs, just got into an argument with the husband over the most ridiculous crap. Just us hillbillys gettin’ into it agin I s’pos. Prolly not a good time to be cleanin’ my gun, ya think?
Thanks for that.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:43 amESTDaveW!!! We are neighbors! That sign is across the street from the Clear Creek HS baseball field - my home away from home. Did you notice that the visitor dugout was blown away? My son is a freshman at CCHS - we live in South Shore.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:44 amESTa repost from the other thread -
need I say it - well maybe I do
sarcasm mode on
Well, we already know how morally superior they are in the UK - maybe we can take it one step further so we can be better than them. We should then kill any individual that is handicapped in any way. Wheelchair - fry ‘um
Blind - dead
bi-polar - gas ‘um
anorexic - starve them
hypothyroid issues - take away the meds
Geez, with that logic, there would be a serious boom business for the morgues and cemetaries!!!
/sarcasm mode off
September 19th, 2008 at 11:48 amESTSo people who commit murder are completely normal?
September 19th, 2008 at 11:50 amESTSo people who commit murder are completely normal?
I never said that, nor do I think I implied it.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:55 amESTYeah - gotta side with Brooke on this one. Many of those people that commit suicide are not in their right mind. I’m fairly certain my God wouldn’t hold their - for lack of a better word - insanity against them. And not anyone can get their hands on those lovely poppies. And by the time it’s near the end, those poppies aren’t working anymore anyway.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:56 amESTYay - a new Sunny pic AND a Herbie pic in the same post! What a great way to start the weekend!
September 19th, 2008 at 12:05 pmESTWatch . It covers the whole issue and its implications brilliantly. The villain in the movie practically quotes Lady Warnock verbatim.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:13 pmESTBrooke and Ethne–
You are both missing the point. Suicide is wrong precisely because it comes as the result of depression. Depressed people who attempt or commit suicide are not looking for death. They are looking for escape. They don’t need assistance to end their lives. They need assistance to be able to live their lives, no matter for how short a time that may be.
What the elderly and the terminally ill are trying to escape is not pain, but the degrading disrespect our culture increasingly shows them. “You’re a burden, you’re nothing, you’re worthless.” That’s what they hear, in our words and our actions. It’s shameful.
Euthanasia and so-called “assisted suicide” are not about killing yourself. They are about killing other people, in the name of “helping” them. And this wight is not even talking about helping them. She’s talking about “putting them down,” getting them out of the way. In other words, killing them for our convenience.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:13 pmESTThat’s shameless.
When the State takes care of you, the State decides if you live or die. It’s not that complicated folks.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:18 pmESTI can handle that- all the welfare queens go first! (As they are very obviously unable to look after themselves.)
September 19th, 2008 at 12:24 pmESTSuicides are always mentally ill — that’s what a suicide is, a mental illness manifested as self homicide. Murderers are also ill. That doesn’t mean what they do is right.
But I don’t know about going to hell either. Whether you go to heaven or hell after death is between you and God. That decision is “above my pay grade” so to speak. Heh.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:25 pmESTTrish gets it. I hereby nominate her for the Unique Hidden Gusset Award.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:28 pmEST
September 19th, 2008 at 12:36 pmESTSeptember 19th, 2008 at 12:43 pmEST
Redhead Infidel-
Hah!
My daughter graduated this year from CCHS. She’s going to College of the Mainland right now, trying to figure out what she wants to do next. No, I didn’t know the dugout got knocked down.
My wife works at the ANICO Marina location at South Shore, they have offices in a couple of buildings there, I think her building is named Marina One?
We live on the north side of 518 between Alabama and Wisconsin off 3rd Ave in a recently developed spot, right across from the Butler Longhorn Museum they just opened.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:45 pmESTMaybe someone in her family would like to pipe up now? I hope at the very least they are dying of embarrassment.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:47 pmESTAstroturfing at McCain/Palin TownHalls? Just asking questions….
Small world!
A UK Telegraph reporter and and McClatchy reporter go to a McCain/Palin townhall meeting attended by three thousand people– by a shocking coincidence, both reporters happen to encounter the same Republican couple who gives some great quotes — quotes not favorable to McCain/Palin.
Name: Trish Castiglione, reported to be a Republican.
Well is she? She might be but I wonder about the place she works at and how right leaning they are? Link provided so you can judge for yourself (some quotes below). Nothing damning but I wonder how they confirmed that she was a republican for the stories?
Well a Goggle search finds that one “Trish Castiglione” works for the:
Hey, she is a “Director of Annual Giving.”
The Grand Rapids Community College Foundation was established in 1964 at the 50th Anniversary of Grand Rapids Junior College…
Today, The GRCC Foundation has assets of over $13 million and awarded a total of $669,531 in scholarships during the academic year.
… The Foundation board is comprised of members representing community leaders, professionals, alumni, donors, faculty, staff and students.
They sponsered events like “Rock the Vote”
September 8, 2008 Grand Rapids, MI – On Sept 10, 2008, GRCC students will ROCK THE VOTE from 10 am to 2 pm in an event featuring a variety of voting-related activities, local bands/artists, and interaction with local political leaders including Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land, Mayor George Heartwell, and State Representative Michael Sak among others.
The event will offer the enticement of free food from Qdoba and features comprehensive voter registration / education opportunities including:
An “Ask the Clerk” booth, staffed by Lauri Parks the Grand Rapids City Clerk who will also be recruiting poll inspectors.
A “Voter Simulation Activity,” which walks students through the same process they will encounter on election day; and students who complete it and sign up to receive an SMS text message reminder to vote on election day will get a free parking pass.
A resource fair of political organizations offering information and diverse angles on the issues to students
The event is the result of a partnership between GRCC’s Campus Activities Board, the GRCC Black Student Union, The GRCC Student Congress, the Grand Rapids City Clerk’s Office and the Grand Rapids Alumni Chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Inc.
and one on
” Media, Politics and Washington: An Evening with Ray Suarez Wednesday, October 8; 7:00 p.m.
Ray is a current Senior Correspondent for PBS’ NewsHour with Jim Lehrer and previously the host of NPR’s Talk of the Nation.
Sponsored by the GRCC Diversity Learning Center.
Other events
September 19th, 2008 at 12:50 pmESTOctober 2 – Health Care in America: How Can We Make it More Affordable?
October 16 – What is the 21st Century Mission For our Public Schools?
October 30 – Racial and Ethnic Tensions: What Should We Do?
evvybuns: godDAMmit that is BIG FAT ASS!! Is there anything South Park can’t be referenced to?
September 19th, 2008 at 12:53 pmESTAwesome new at NRO.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:57 pmESTHas anyone besides me ever noticed that most of the ardent supporters of abortion are also opposed to capital punishment? That pro life people oppose abortion, but tend to favor capital punishment? I note that the abortion rights crowd seems to favor killing the innocent, while the pro-life camp wants to protect the innocent while executing the guilty?
In broad terms, you’re partly correct. Though I’m not a Catholic, it’s my understanding that their position opposes both abortion and capital punishment. They’ve been consistent about it for quite some time.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:02 pmESTStylinjulie,
I was just going to comment on that.
Bill Whittle=The best this country has to offer.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:06 pmESTWell it’s certainly the inference I drew from your comment.
So, if murderers are just as mentally disturbed as suicides, then why is suicide less immoral than murder?
But insanity and depression are not necessarily the same thing. Just because you feel bad about your life doesn’t mean you are mentally unbalanced. We’ve all been conditioned to think of depression in terms of clinical depression, but plenty of “depressed” people out there are just people who feel bad about one thing or another.
Now having said that, if someone has a genuine and serious mental illness, then it’s probably safe to say the Lord wouldn’t hold it against them if they killed themselves since they arguably weren’t truly responsible for their actions. My point is that most people who suffer from “depression” are just people who think their life sucks (probably because it does). They aren’t mentally disturbed, they don’t have clinical depression, they’re just “depressed”.
But in reality, talking about the mental state of suicides misses the point entirely.
To quote from :
September 19th, 2008 at 1:17 pmESTWhen the state starts telling you it’s patriotic to pay taxes it’s not too far a leap when they start telling you it’s patriotic to kill yourself to save our country’s resources (think Oregon).
ErikZ is right, if the government runs your life they will run your death too.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:22 pmESTstylinjulie- thanks for the link!
(I’m a D&D widow…)
I love the Dungeons and Dragon analogy
Since it’s open thread, I figure it’s good time to blow off some steam… What’s fuck wrong with those Obamatards?!?!
Most of my friends are those tree hugging liberals (don’t ask me why… I’m one of those intolerant conservatives after all) and on facebook, it’s nauseating to see all those Palin/McCain bashing notes. I had to refrain myself from getting into facebook arguments because after all, there’s no way to reason with them Obama-obsessed retards. Oops did I say retard… who fuck cares.
That said, I’m so glad to discover this site… it’s really reassuring to see more people that actually are sane and actually have common sense.
Oh, I want to mention something else regarding suicides, depression is a mental disease, so I always view depression related suicides as fatal outcome of depression, not self-murder. People do die from diseases, and depression should be not treated differently. I also should mention, I’m a Christian who doesn’t believe that suicides go straight to hell.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:24 pmESTWow. Black protesters at Obama rally!
video:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:32 pmEST“The 84-year-old added that she hoped people will soon be “licensed to put others down” if they are unable to look after themselves. …”
Oh gee,is’nt THAT fucking special……does the license come with an autographed pic of Rheinhard Heydrich?
September 19th, 2008 at 1:35 pmESTSeptember 19th, 2008 at 1:41 pmEST
Personally, if I ever get to the point where my mind’s gone and not coming back, I hope that some kindly passing serial killer will decide to add me to his (or her—remember “Aunt Jane” Toppan!) score. Spending years and years as a drooling zombie-alike does not appeal, to put it very mildly.
I am, if nothing else, the soul of consistency. I’m in favor of:
Abortion
Euthanasia
Duelling (especially as a way to settle elections—who needs this tiresome voting? Throw the candidates into an arena with Bowie knives—two go in, one comes out! Sell the rights on Pay-Per-View, and good-bye, deficits!)
Warfare
Capital Punishment.
You may be noticing a certain commonality here. I didn’t get the college nickname “Sweeney Todd” because I was a humanitarian. (To be a humanitarian, I’d have had to eat some of Mrs. Lovett’s Meat Pies, anyway.)
September 19th, 2008 at 1:42 pmESTAs someone who suffers from Depression (and is BiPolar) I think I can safely talk about depression and its affects.
Someone who is medically depressed (as in the disease, not just feeling sad for a little while) is NOT in their right mind. “helping” them commit suicide is morally WRONG and stupid. The only help someone who suffers depression needs is medication, therapy, and support.
People with depression aren’t just “sad” and looking for a way “out” … Depression creates a hole that looks impossible to escape. And the only way to stop the pain (that can be so bad that it is actually physical pain) is to take your own life. Is it logical? No. Of course not. It’s insane. But that is the point. Depression is an illness - a chemical imbalance. Death is not the answer - but apparently this idjit 84 year old would have us “mentally unstable” folks put to death. Glad I don’t live in Europe. After all, it’s certainly cheaper to put us “down” than to pay for all those health inducing medications.
Someone who is terminally ill and already dying I am less strong in my belief. My father was terminal with Colon Cancer and I believe he ended up killing himself with unrestricted access to morphine. He was in EXTREME pain…beyond words pain. He was not depressed…he was dying. And I have a hard time believing that God would punish him for taking his life at that time.
I think that people often associate suicide with being weak or stupid. It’s easy to over simplify.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:43 pmESTPBS has a poll up asking whether Sarah Palin is qualified to be Vice President. See here:
(Where’s their poll on whether Obama is qualified to be President?)
And…
Today is the International Talk Like a Pirate Day:
September 19th, 2008 at 1:52 pmESTSo, if murderers are just as mentally disturbed as suicides, then why is suicide less immoral than murder?
/shakes fist at mighty samurai
Damn you for making me think….To answer your question, I don’t know, especially as you continued your post with the Ten Minute Suicide Guide.
Is it a cop out if I say because I genuinely feel sorry for someone who is depressed feeling that is the only way they have out?
September 19th, 2008 at 2:00 pmESTI find it funny that Biden says it’s patriotic to pay your taxes, yet he (and most liberals) forget this country was founded on the fact we felt we were overtaxed by the British without representation in their government.
We need more historians in Congress and less lawyers.
September 19th, 2008 at 2:03 pmESTDeath and taxes. Could someone explain who is going to pay for the trillion dollar Wall Street bailout(s). I hope it isn’t me. But, if we need to combine death and taxes, think about the trillions of dollars of wealth the older generation has, and the sooner they die, the sooner we get the money, and we can pay off the trillion $ Wall St bailout.
September 19th, 2008 at 2:40 pmESTSeptember 19th, 2008 at 2:50 pmEST
Okay, well, I’m a Christian and I don’t think people who commit suicide won’t get to heaven. I think God’s way bigger than that.
On another subject, my boss developed brain cancer last February. After surgeries in two parts of her brain she was sent home with no chance of survival. She died this week. I was with her 5 days a week for the past five months at her home. She wasn’t the writer, lecturer and leader that she had been before — as a matter of fact, people who had known her for years probably wouldn’t have recognized her. But I “interviewed” her daily in an effort to stimulate her mind and try to exercise her memory, and we sang songs and delighted each other with childlike games and conversations. That helped me help her get through all the things she had to do each day. I can’t tell you how enriched MY life was by spending time with this woman in her current state. I didn’t know her before, so I grew to love who she was now. If the eugenics folks had their way, I would have lost out on getting to know her and spending time with her, and the world would have lost out on the memories we retrieved. That would have sucked for everybody — especially her family.
September 19th, 2008 at 2:56 pmESTHehe Tully -
Iz Jeanine Garofalo?
September 19th, 2008 at 2:57 pmESTJust a thought from Canada–the land of nationalized healthcare.
September 19th, 2008 at 3:04 pmESTIt seems to me Dame whatshername’s concern for the impact of caring for people with dementia on the national health system is an inevitable side effect of nationalized medicine.
The state pays for it–the state has the right to say who benefits. And that, it seems to me, is an argument in favor of private health care.
Just my two cents.
Leilani - That is wonderful and amazing of you!!! One of my coworkers just died recently from cervical cancer and seeing her on her very last day was like seeing a completely different person. But it was HER choice to not be hooked up to tubes and things that would prolong her life. Once she knew she wouldn’t survive she took those steps on her own. (She had tumors throughout her entire body and they were inoperable.) She is the only one (with her family) who should be able to make that decision - not some anonymous Nazi government official looking at a form and checking off who can live and who should die.
September 19th, 2008 at 3:06 pmESTAnd, to that highly decorated and praised British ethicist, I say:
Soylent Green is PEOPLE!
Now, bite down on granny. Asshole!
September 19th, 2008 at 3:07 pmESTShame about that “almost”
September 19th, 2008 at 3:11 pmESTHave any of these ethicist assholes EVER talked to someone who is demented? They can be very, very funny! And, every now and then, they have a break through moment!
If I were going to write scripts for TV, I would want to have a few institutionalized demented people up my sleeve, so to speak, to talk to. Lots of good script material, there!
Now, THAT seems to qualify them (the demented) as people with a purpose!
September 19th, 2008 at 3:13 pmESTThat Ninja Cat video is actually kind of spooky.
September 19th, 2008 at 3:27 pmESTPug owner ups the ante! Check out the reader pic at the Sheldon Comics site. Behold, “Pug Vader”!
September 19th, 2008 at 3:27 pmESTGotta weigh in, here. The Scriptures are silent on the subject of suicide. Even Judas did not rate a Nelson Muntz-esque “HA-ha”. Thus any burbling done on the subject is suppositional at best. As God did not see fit to speak on the subject, it seems a matter of letting grace do its thing, rather than dogmatically waggling the Bony Finger. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Beyond loving them practically (this includes being with them) and offering counsel, what more can we do for the suicidally depressed?
As a very young kid, I was convinced that they got people who REALLY wanted to commit suicide to be the victims on television. The guy that got shot in the gunfight really got shot. Kids…
September 19th, 2008 at 3:45 pmESTOh…LOVE the ninja kitty!
September 19th, 2008 at 3:52 pmESTMcCain-Palin rally in Rockville, Maryland:
Please join me for the McCain-Palin event this Sunday, September 21st from 2-4 p.m. We planned the details this past Thursday. We will be waiving McCain-Palin signs at high-visibility locations in the county and gathering volunteer emails. If we change the vote of even 5% of Montgomery County, it is possible to win this county (and thus Maryland) for John McCain and Sarah Palin.
Please join me Sunday out front of my building at 51 Monroe Street in Rockville (close to the Rockville metro and county courthouse and near the intersection of Rts. 28 and 355). If you can get here around 1:30 Sunday, you could help me get us organized for our 2 p.m. kick-off. My cell-phone is below. Just look for the McCain-Palin rally signs. Bring a friend (even a camera) because these rally events create life-time memories. If you can’t make it Sunday, send a family member, friend or neighbor, because this election is just that important.
Every bumper sticker on a car is worth $250 of television advertising to our candidate. If you could get 100 bumper stickers distributed, that would be equal to $25,000 of ad time. If you would like to order McCain-Palin materials for your own uses, one source is . In bulk, bumper stickers are $.20 to $.30 each; yard signs are about $1.20 each. The net return on a $30 purchase of 100 bumper stickers you provide to your fellow voters in your network is $24,970 for your candidate.
Dan Willard
Maryland Capitol Region Director (MC & PG)
John McCain 2008
Daniel S. Willard, P.C.
September 19th, 2008 at 3:57 pmEST51 Monroe Street, Penthouse IV
Rockville, MD 20850
office:
fax:
cell:
The crystal in my hand just turned red, I don’t want to do the carousel. Uh oh, here comes the sandman.
September 19th, 2008 at 4:02 pmESTSeptember 19th, 2008 at 4:24 pmEST
Yes, but the big question is: which was better, the book or the movie? I prefer the movie.
September 19th, 2008 at 4:46 pmESTOne thing about depression that can be really hard for those who’ve never been down in that dark well to understand is that a depressed person can actually get to the point where he really truly doesn’t think it will bother anyone if he’s gone. It’s an irrational and out-of-touch-with-reality way to think, but then, depression makes a person lose touch, to one degree or another.
I don’t believe that God would punish someone whose thinking has grown that distorted.
That Baroness Warnock is a fool. I hope her health continues to be good so she doesn’t have to face what she’s calling for. How supremely arrogant to think that a passel of bureaucrats are the right people to decide when the cost of someone’s life has exceeded its worth!
My 72-year old father has lung cancer. It was about 17 months ago that his oncologist gave him a prognosis of 12-18 months. The chemotherapy was effective, buying him more time. Right now he’s doing pretty well; the disease is slow growing. But the fact is that it’s terminal. My son is 2. He adores his grandfather. After me, my dad is my son’s favorite person. I hope my dad has enough time left that my son will be able to remember him, but there’s no way to know how things will turn out.
It’s revolting to think that, if we had national health care like Britain does, some know-it-all could decide that a person in a situation like my father’s is using too many resources and should be “put down.” How can a relationship like the one between my son and my father be quantified so it could go on a balance sheet as a credit to counterbalance the financial cost of his care?
Really, it’s just a disgusting and mercenary way of thinking.
On a much more positive note, Tully, that was fucking hilarious! XD
September 19th, 2008 at 4:48 pmESTOK, gonna try this one more goddam time.
yay it worked
September 19th, 2008 at 4:52 pmESTChances are your brain doesn’t hurt
September 19th, 2008 at 4:52 pmESTROFL maya!!
September 19th, 2008 at 5:03 pmESTBill Whittle is genius.
September 19th, 2008 at 5:07 pmESTTully, I could tell the doll was a Democrat. She’s leaning to the far left!
September 19th, 2008 at 5:35 pmESTAlso…there’s suicide, and there’s suicide. I think even the most anti-suicide people here would be able to find room in their hearts to forgive me, if I walked up to Osama bin Laden, gave him a great big hug…and set off the TNT-and-roofing-nails vest I had on under my coat.
If I got any flak at all, it’d probably be along the lines of: “Technomad! How could you DO such a thing? Giving him such a quick death? Didn’t you know he deserved to SUFFER?” And all my pleas of “The man was married many times over—what could I do to him to make him suffer that he’d even NOTICE?” would do me no good.
September 19th, 2008 at 5:44 pmESTYou know what they say; all feet, no teeth.
September 19th, 2008 at 5:48 pmESTBut just because you feel sorry for them doesn’t mean they didn’t also commit a sin.
Many child molesters were sexually abused themselves as children. I can feel sorry for what they suffered and for what it turned them into, but it doesn’t change the fact that they still committed a sin.
However, the big difference between suicide and other sins is that with suicide you cannot repent your sins and ask for forgiveness.
Anyone, even the most despicably evil human being imaginable (yes, including Adolf Hitler), can get into heaven. If you honestly repent your sins and embrace the Lord, your sins will be forgiven. But if you commit suicide, it’s too late. You’re dead. Your final judgment has already started.
Now of course, you can argue that some suicides will be forgiven anyway due to mitigating circumstances (severe mental illness, sacrificing your life for some greater good, etc.). But the danger here is if you go around telling people all the time that suicide is a forgivable sin, how many people who would have held off on their suicide attempts out of fear of divine judgment will decide to go through with it anyway?
True, there is no specific “Thou Shalt Not Kill Thyself” commandment, but then there’s also no specific “Thou Shalt Not Abort Thy Child” commandment either. Just like abortion, the Bible’s position on suicide is inferred from other passages.
September 19th, 2008 at 6:14 pmESTAvast!! Hoist anchor and set sail for it be the day o’ reckoning: International Talk Like A Pirate Day (TLAPD). Great Neptune’s nipples! The skies be clear and me cutlass be yearnin’ for a fight. By the end o’ the day me throat shall feel as though the cap’n took the cat o’ nine tails to it, but I shall drink rum and ale till me saucy wench appears to be a lusty lass. The day’s not over till ye be sober, so drink up and talk like a pirate all weekend! Throw back a clap o’ thunder to get ye started, but stay away from me treasure or ye shall walk the plank.
September 19th, 2008 at 6:24 pmESTThe Ninja Cat video is gone!! WTF?
September 19th, 2008 at 6:25 pmESTI’d bet that if a collectible touched Sunny’s fur its value would go UP.
September 19th, 2008 at 7:36 pmESTFrom mightysamurai’s link to The Ten Minute Suicide Guide:
Best line ever, and I’m an atheist.
September 19th, 2008 at 7:47 pmESTWhen I just now voted, the results were 59% yes, 36% no, and 4% not sure.
ARRRRRR Mateys!
September 19th, 2008 at 7:59 pmESTSeptember 19th, 2008 at 8:00 pmEST
Aw, no…it only seems two minutes since I was on the phone to my fiance, asking her if she knew that it was ‘Talk Like A Pirate’ day. And that was last year.
Do the days go past faster and faster, the older you get? If so, then that is soooo unfair!
Anyway, here goes: Avast, Sha, me proud beauty! Wanna know why my Roger is so Jolly? Sorry darlin’, but I’ve been quaffing the grog, as usual!
Oh, I give up. I’ll never be as authentic a pirate as Red Beard. I don’t even own a single eye patch.
September 19th, 2008 at 8:26 pmESTNeptune’s nipples! Tee hee!
By Neptune’s ninety nefarious nipples, I now need a nice nip of nog!
September 19th, 2008 at 9:15 pmESTGranted, but ultimately that paragraph is still true. If you think no one cares about you now and no one will care about you when you’re gone, then why bother killing yourself? Either way you get the same result. So why go to all the effort?
And if you think everyone hates you, then suicide makes even less sense than before. If you’re right, not only will everyone not care when you’re gone, they’ll be HAPPY about it.
Besides, since when has “I didn’t think anyone would get hurt” been a valid excuse for anything?
Maybe, maybe not. There are probably tons of people out there who believed at one time or another that nobody loves them and no one would care if they died (in fact I’d go as far as to say that everyone has had that feeling at least once in their lives, if only for a moment).
But did they all kill themselves? No. So if some people can work through it without giving up and blowing their brains out, doesn’t it follow that those who do decide to throw in the towel have failed in some way? That their faith, emotional strength, whatever you want to call it, was too weak?
There’s something that needs to be kept in mind when it comes to these “why would God punish someone for that?” kind of debates.
God is infinite. In EVERY possible way.
Now think about that for a moment because I have a feeling many of you haven’t fully grasped what that means. See, we’ve been conditioned all our lives by going to church or (if you’re not a Christian) listening to church-goers to think of the Judeo-Christian God as being simply “all-powerful” because it’s easy to imagine (if not fully comprehend) the idea of an infinitely powerful being. But we rarely think about the other aspects of God.
God isn’t just infinitely powerful. He’s also infinitely kind, infinitely cruel, and most importantly, infinitely JUST. Let me say that again. God is INFINITELY JUST.
We humans are not capable of being infinitely just. Our sense of justice is finite. We make mistakes, we apply our own rules inconsistently, we miscarry justice and give excessive punishments. We try not to, but we still do it. That’s what written laws and governments are for, after all. That’s why the Founding Fathers created our judicial system with so many checks and balances in it. Because they knew that to rely solely on people’s innate sense of justice is to invite either tyranny or anarchy. An objective system must be established to determine and carry out justice for us because we aren’t capable of doing it ourselves.
But God doesn’t have that limitation. He doesn’t make mistakes. He doesn’t apply the rules unfairly. There are no “miscarriages of justice” or “excessive punishments” when it comes to God’s judgment. When God judges you, He gives you EXACTLY what you deserve. Because He KNOWS exactly what you deserve.
If you deserve to be punished, His wrath will know no bounds.
If you deserve to be rewarded, His kindness and compassion will know no bounds.
If you fall somewhere in between, He will reward you or punish you to precisely the extent you deserve. He will do that because He is the only being in the universe who can. No one ends up in Hell by mistake.
Anyway, Amelia, you say you don’t think that God would punish someone who has become so emotionally unbalanced that they decide suicide is the only choice available. Well, in some cases you may very well be right. I would not be at all surprised if God forgave a person whose mental illness or emotional instability was so intense that they just couldn’t help themselves. But I would also not be surprised if God punished someone who was just being a whiny titty-baby about everything. The point is that in both cases, God’s judgment would be an absolutely fair and just decision.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:20 pmESTYaaaasssssss!
Graduating from college, that was an achievement.
Getting married, wonderful.
Seeing my four hillbilly kids born (but not all at once), wouldn’t trade.
Earning my RHCE this year, huge.
But the Chuck Norris Action Jeans With ‘Unique Hidden Gusset’ Award for Excellence in Commenting?
Now I can die happy. My life is complete.
Thank you, thank you!
September 19th, 2008 at 9:25 pmESTFound new meaning for the term “Guard Dog”
September 19th, 2008 at 10:19 pmESTmightysamurai–
In some ways you are right, and in others you are terribly wrong. You do not understand depression at all.
You seem to think that depressed people commit suicide as some sort of revenge. “If you’re right, not only will everyone not care when you’re gone, they’ll be HAPPY about it.” Yes, that’s precisely why some of us who are depressed commit suicide–because, for the first time in our worthless, pointless lives, we are doing something that will make people HAPPY! Sometimes it is only the idea that we will be hurting people whose lives do have worth that stops us.
You say, “There are probably tons of people out there who believed at one time or another that nobody loves them and no one would care if they died (in fact I’d go as far as to say that everyone has had that feeling at least once in their lives, if only for a moment).
But did they all kill themselves? No. So if some people can work through it without giving up and blowing their brains out, doesn’t it follow that those who do decide to throw in the towel have failed in some way? That their faith, emotional strength, whatever you want to call it, was too weak?”
What you don’t understand is that is WHY depressed people kill themselves. We know we’re not as good as normal people. We don’t understand why we can’t cope with things that other people get through. We know that we are truly failures as human beings. We know other people don’t kill themselves when things go wrong. But we are failures–we have failed in courage, in strength, in faith. The world is better off without us.
None of this is true from an objective point of view. But it is what we who battle depression experience in our minds every day of our lives. Telling us it’s true is a moral failure of a different kind. Telling us we’re whiny titty-babies who will be condemned by God for our depression merely enforces the belief that we are, indeed, complete failures who deserve to be condemned and for whom life holds nothing.
God is infinitely just. When God judges humanity, He judges by His standard–and everyone He judges will be damned. He judges by His standards, not ours, and His standard is perfection. We are all sinful in His eyes; by His standards we all deserve to be punished, and none deserve to be rewarded.
Christianity is the escape clause. God is infinitely just, but, through His son Jesus Christ, He is also infinitely merciful. Any sin may be forgiven through confession and repentance, except rejection of the Holy Spirit, because that is a rejection of the mercy of which we speak. Suicide may be that rejection, as the Church holds; what may come
September 19th, 2008 at 10:30 pmESTafter, deponent knoweth not.
—–the voice of bitter experience
Mightysam, I normally agree with you, but I really think that you’re being too hard.
You talk about justice, but what about mercy? Sometimes the two are mutually incompatible - if someone spends their life stealing, cheating and generally being a bastard, but then has a change of heart just before they die, and asks God for forgiveness, then how will God judge them - on their rap sheet, which would be just, or on the state of heart when they died, which would be merciful?
If you’re thinking right now that I’m a wishy-washy kind of Christian and that I’m trying to apply the principle of forgiveness to people who by biblical standards won’t have their sins covered by the blood of the lamb, well…no argument there.
You’d be right about me. I used to go to a Pentecostal church, but these days I’m more than a deist than someone who believes in the Bible as something to be taken absolutely literally, word for word.
The God I choose to believe in is one of mercy. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my part that God will be the way that I hope Him to be, but there you go. Everyone screws up and makes shitty decisions, every single day of their lives - I made one when I was sixteen and decided to slash my wrists.
And no, I’m not personally offended by your opinions just because I tried to off myself - in fact, I agree with you that attempting suicide is a bloody stupid, pointless thing to do.
I can see that now, but I couldn’t see it then. Now, I have confidence in myself and hope for the future. Twenty years ago though, I thought that I was totally useless, and my mind was so warped that I genuinely thought that my parents would be better off if I was dead. People who attempt suicide don’t usually do it because they see something worthwhile to strive for but aren’t strong enough to keep fighting for it; they often do it because they’ve lost all hope of them ever being able to make a difference even in their own lives.
Stupid? Sure. But I’d hope that those people who did the same thing as me but who weren’t fortunate to have someone find them before they bled to death somehow managed to find some mercy from God.
I suppose that we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:32 pmESTI know exactly the place. In fact, I drove a few blocks off 518 to avoid the long lines at the non-working stoplights on Main Street today. Lots and lots of trees down over there, like a tornado selectively hit those streets.
Also, my friend Jennifer is the founder and curator of the Longhorn Museum.
Small world.
September 20th, 2008 at 12:43 amESTMaya -
“Think of the pork!”
Best campaign slogan of our time (that is if Sunny were ever able to run for an office.)
September 20th, 2008 at 1:22 amESTNo worries ccs, we’ll be sure to turn your body into Soylent Green the most nutritous of all Soylent products.
September 20th, 2008 at 1:24 amESTSeptember 20th, 2008 at 3:33 amEST
Rachel said:
Remember, If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:51 amESTHer mom lives in my neighborhood, she’s an amazing woman. She was trapped behind the lines when the Nazis invaded and lived under occupation until Europe was liberated. Its an amazing story and I feel privileged to know her.
Jennifer is a helluva nice gal.
And yeah the trees are just a total mess around here. Most people are finally starting to dig their way out now.
September 20th, 2008 at 6:25 amESTmightysamuri —
I didn’t see an actual response to your query, but maybe I missed it. The murderer is taking someone else’s life. That would make it less moral/ethical.
Someone mentioned suicide is not dealt with in the bible and you state it’s a sin. Could you provide chapter/verse reference to support your view?
September 20th, 2008 at 9:42 amESTThe Aardvark:
We were taught, in church, that killing yourself meant going to hell because in the 10 Commandments, it states that thou shalt not kill. Killing yourself was one of the biggest sins because you could not ask for forgiveness like you could other sins you may have committed. It may not be in a scripture but that is how some of us were taught.
Now, I don’t really believe in that because while it may not be considered “committing suicide” by normal definitions, the following are examples of people who killed themselves for different reasons:
Soldiers who jump on to grenades, knowing that what they are doing is killing themselves in order to save everyone else. According to some churches, this person will go to hell.
What about those in the Twin Towers who jumped rather than be burned to death? Either way they were going to die but to some churches, these people killed themselves and are going to hell.
This is why I have such problems with religion. I have certain beliefs, I’m not an atheist…I’d say some days I am agnostic and other days I think, “Well…maybe there really is a god”.
I’ve been to several different denominations when I was younger and they all seem to teach things a little differently. Some say God is merciful and just and others preach that God gets angry easily and you will feel his wrath when he does. Frankly, I don’t particularly like angry God and that sort of teaching makes me want to run away, fast and far, from religion.
Anyway, the point is, some people are taught this way and that’s why some people believe you go to hell if you kill yourself.
MightySam:
One thing about some of the depressed who commit suicide is not that they are worried about making everyone happy, it’s that they feel so completely worthless, so unloved, so sure that not soul one would miss them that they grow incredibly apathetic about life itself. To some, the depression is painful not only emotionally, it can actually start to cause physical pain and they want that pain to end. They see no end to it, they see no one reaching out to them, they see that no one cares. What is the constant here? No one else cares, therefore, I must be a totally useless pile of garbage. What is the point, then, of continuing to suffer like this, day after day after day? If no one cares, if no one will notice, it will not hurt anyone, they will no longer be in pain, so the answer seems very clear to them.
Depression leading to suicide is not about some whiny baby not getting their way. People aren’t killing themselves because they didn’t get the job, they kill themselves because NOT getting that job was the last straw in a long line of what they consider nothing but failures. (As an example.)
It may be easy to say, “Oh snap out of it! Focus on the good things in life. Grow up. Get over yourself.” It’s another thing for someone who is that severely depressed to follow.
People don’t WANT to be depressed. It’s not always something that can be controlled by just thinking happy thoughts. Trust me on that one.
September 20th, 2008 at 10:27 amESTInteresting posts, all. I’ve got a copy of Dante’s Inferno in my bookcase. I’ll have to give it another look because my curiosity’s up, plus I love reading.
My mother died a horrific cervical cancer death. She had a DNR (do not resuscitate) paper. That’s not suicide, BTW. That’s allowing nature to take its course and she had suffered a long time. She and I were tight and I miss her every day. I can’t wait to see her in Heaven someday.
I now see to her mother, my 90 year-old grandmother, who took care of me my first two weeks after I was born and my mother was on mandatory bedrest. It is not a burden. She’s remarkable in that at her age her mind is still sharp and she has an amazing amount of physical ability for her years. Two things she cannot do: get up and down from out of the floor and cut her toenails. So what. That’s what us grandchildren and children are for. I am also her fix-it girl, pedicurist, administrative assistant, and personal shopper. It’s an honor to take care of the lady who first took care of me.
As for Lady (and I use that term loosely) Warnock and that shrew Sandra Bernhard, they and their unhinged moonbat feminazi friends would do the world a tremendous favor if they would jump out the window of a tall building. They’re all a bane to polite society. At least Sandra spared us by not bearing a child. Sheesh! Can you imagine that ugly mug on the poor young-un?! UGH! That baby would be so ugly you’d have to hang a pork chop around its neck to get the dog to play with it. Sandra’s not been the same since Madonna ditched their lesbian relationship all those many years ago to play wife and mommy with the two subsequent husbands (or did she marry only Ritchie?) she’s had.
Innocent babies deserve to live, no matter what their physical and mental constitution–same for the elderly. If you’re not learning from an elderly person, who is a walking history book, you’re cheating yourself.
September 20th, 2008 at 10:44 amESTI agree with the British “ethicist.” Useless people SHOULD be euthanized. And she should volunteer to be the first if she really feels this way.
September 20th, 2008 at 11:23 amESTAt the risk of coming across like a humorless pedant, I have to weigh in on the suicide issue that has been raised here because suicide has touched many, if not most of us at some point in our lives. My mother died a terrible death at 50 from lung cancer. I know that she considered suicide because she obtained a revolver to put an end to her life, when the pain became unbearable. She never did do it. On the day she died, I visited her and found her indulging her two favorite activities: watching football and smoking. The will to live in someone who is not depressed or otherwise incapacitated, is very strong.
I am stating a Catholic perspective here on suicide but I think it is very much in harmony with that of most Christian bodies.
The formal prohibition on suicide arose as a response by the early Church to the surrounding Greco-Roman culture in which suicide was seen as an honorable way out. It is grounded in the 5th commandment (against murder) but also it is grounded in our duty to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Thus para. 2281 of the Catechism says:
“Suicide … is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.”
The Catholic Church believes and teaches formally that … “Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.” (para. 2282)
In the next paragraph the Catechism states: “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.”
In other words, God, who knows all, is infinitely just and infinitely merciful. We can trust him in this matter as in every other.
As far as Dante is concerned? Fiction, people, fiction! He was a poet, not the pope. Two letters in common isn’t enough to to give the Inferno the status of doctrine!
September 20th, 2008 at 12:15 pmESTNo, I think they do it because they’re not thinking clearly. It’s irrational and illogical to think that the world is so bad that the only thing you can do is kill yourself. As someone I know once put it, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
In some cases you can certainly argue that this is not their fault. That something is so profoundly wrong with them that they can’t truly be held responsible for their actions. But in other cases it’s just a weak person giving up because he/she can’t be bothered to try harder.
Now obviously I can’t know which is which. But then, I’m not the one who has to figure it out. God is. I’m not the one who has to sit and judge a person for what they’ve done. God does that. I don’t do it because I can’t do it. I’m limited, imperfect, and flawed. God is unlimited, perfect, and flawless. When He judges you, He’ll judge you exactly the right way, every time, guaranteed.
Well, in the Roman Catholic tradition, such a person would go to purgatory where his soul would be slowly and painfully purified, and then would go on to heaven (this isn’t a punishment per se, more a spiritual cleansing). In the Protestant tradition, faith alone (which in the Christian tradition is both believing in God AND repenting your sins) is enough to wipe your sins clean and earn you your eternal reward.
Either way, you’re confusing human justice with God’s justice.
Think about it. If we humans were able to look at a criminal and judge, with perfect accuracy and just by looking at him, whether he was truly repentant, why would we lock him up? Isn’t getting someone to admit what they did was wrong and learning never to do it again the whole point of prison? If we could tell that just by looking at them, why go to all the trouble of punishing them? Isn’t the job already done?
That right there is the difference between Earthly justice and divine justice.
We can’t distinguish true and honest repentance from someone just telling us what we want to hear. So just to be safe, we lock them up. We tell them they have to “pay their debt to society” or “make restitution”. We do that because we can’t know for sure whether a sinner really means it when he says “I’m sorry for what I did, I’ll never do it again”. We can only hope that a few years or decades in lock-up will knock some penitence into them. Or if the sin is great enough, we conclude that no amount of prison time could possibly reform them so we sentence them to death or life imprisonment. It’s a crude and imperfect system, but it’s the best we limited beings are capable of doing.
But, again, God is entirely different. If you say “I’m sorry for what I did, I’ll never do it again” God KNOWS whether you really mean it or if you’re just saying it. He’ll look right into the depths of your soul and He’ll KNOW whether you’ve honestly repented your sins. If you have, He’ll forgive you. If you haven’t, He’ll punish you.
With God, there are NO unforgivable sins. ANY sin, even the most evil and despicable sin imaginable, is forgivable. And yes, that includes rejecting God and His mercy. Even that can be forgiven if you confess to it and repent for it.
September 20th, 2008 at 12:15 pmESTSuicide is not mentioned as a sin anywhere in the bible, it’s all in the interpretation of “Thou shalt not kill.”
It was Aquinas who most influenced the church dogma that suicide, by excluding a final repentance, was a mortal sin. As some have noted, suicide is almost always a permanent solution to a temporary problem. One can think of a few potential exceptions, and one does note that advancing death to avoid the pain one would suffer in terminal illness means that pain itself is a “temporary” problem–death will inevitably end it whether it comes naturally or through suicide. But the end is the same.
Euthanasia is most assuredly homicide if not done at the request of a rational and mentally competent patient. In that specific case, it’s assisted suicide. Someone else can argue about “mercy killings” and other events as justifiable homicide–I won’t.
September 20th, 2008 at 12:29 pmESTLOL, BigEZ! Not only is the costume embarrassing, but it showcases his neckticles. No one should dress so unflatteringly.
Ah, I see Serenity, Trish and Rob F have done a better job than I of explaining what I was trying to get at.
Sure, there are some folks out there who seem to live in a perpetual pity party, and derive a sort of odd pleasure out of wallowing in their misery and displaying it for others. But that’s not the same thing as being truly depressed. It’s a hard illness to comprehend unless you’ve either lived it or been close to someone who has, because the thought patterns become so warped. It’s a nasty vicious downward spiral. It feeds on itself.
I’ve personally observed that spiral triggered in different people by reasons such as the loss of identity a person felt when he got laid off, by the death of a loved one, by a prolonged physical illness, and by the divorce of parents. I’ve also seen it happen for no apparent reason in a life that looked from the outside to be a good one. For all of those it would be easy for someone on the outside to say Man up! Grow a pair! Bad things happen to everyone. Don’t be such a cry baby.
Which would have been utterly counterproductive.
But I think the hardest one for me to see was the time I watched a young friend of mine go, over a period of about 2 months, from a happy-go-lucky sort to a someone who despised himself. I found out later it was because he’d been sexually assaulted by a girl he’d considered a friend. If he were a woman assaulted by a man I think even the least sympathetic would find it hard to condemn him for his feelings. Sadly, since he’s not a woman, not everyone has been so understanding.
September 20th, 2008 at 12:39 pmESTOligonicella,
See my 6:14 post. Suicide isn’t specifically identified as a sin in the Bible, but then again, neither is abortion. The Bible’s position on both is inferred from other passages.
I know of no church who would condemn someone to Hell in either of those situations. A soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers is not intending to kill himself, his intent is to save lives. If he could somehow save their lives without killing himself, then undoubtedly he would do that instead. And of course, Christianity itself has a long history of religious martyrdom. If that isn’t suicide, a soldier diving on top of a grenade isn’t either. As for the people who jumped from the Twin Towers, that would NOT be a mortal sin because it was not committed with deliberate and complete consent. The people who jumped from the Twin Towers were stuck between a rock and a hard place with no way out. Jumping, while technically a suicide, would be a lesser sin.
In reality, the only reason the church takes such a seemingly hardline stance against sin is because if they didn’t, people would go around actively looking for loopholes in the rules that would allow them to sin without fear of consequences. Their reasoning is that if people are taught that justice is harsh and unyielding, perhaps it will make them think twice.
This is why the question “Is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?” annoys me. I hate that question because if I say yes, I’m being cruel and unreasonable. If I say no, I’m opening the door for people to start justifying theft.
So is it really hurting anyone for the church to say “suicide is a sin”? If just one person decides to abandon their suicide attempt and try to turn their life around out of fear that God will punish them for killing themselves, isn’t that worth it?
Exactly. To some. In that case, I’m confident that God would forgive a person who killed himself. In other cases I’m not so sure. But like I said, it’s not my job to figure out who goes to heaven and who doesn’t. So me speculating about it doesn’t really hurt anyone, now does it?
Like I said, in some cases you could certainly argue that a person can’t be held responsible for committing suicide. But in other cases suicide is just a weak person giving up. It’s impossible for us to say, after the fact, whether someone was genuinely depressed or just being a whiny baby. But again, it’s not our job to figure that out.
I’m a high school teacher. I humbly beg to differ. : )
September 20th, 2008 at 12:58 pmESTThat’s basically what I’ve been trying to say. There are depressed people, and then there are depressed people.
These days we tend think of depression as just people feeling bad about themselves. It’s an unfortunate consequence of the rise of pharmaceutical anti-depressants combined with good old hypochondria and the belief that modern medicine can solve anything. People go into a doctor’s office and say “Doc, I feel like crap. Make me feel better.” If the doctor can’t find anything medically wrong with them, they say “Here, take this prescription for Prozac. You’re officially depressed.” The doctor knows they aren’t really depressed, but if he has to sit there and explain to this person why they aren’t really depressed it takes time away from other patients who might actually be in need. (Obviously I’m exaggerating but you get the point.)
In a sense, it’s become “fashionable” to be able to say “I’m depressed”. Just like for a while it was fashionable for celebrities to check themselves into rehab every other day.
Compounding the problem is the fact that sometimes (not always but sometimes) a suicide attempt is actually a plea for attention rather than a result of crippling major depression. The person didn’t actually intend to kill himself, he just wanted someone to notice him (sadly attention doesn’t always come in time to save them).
Ultimately, it’s not our job to figure out which suicides were so profoundly depressed they couldn’t help killing themselves and which ones weren’t. That’s the Lord’s job. And He DOES NOT make mistakes. That’s my point. If it would be unjust to condemn a suicide to Hell, then God won’t do it.
September 20th, 2008 at 1:15 pmEST*sigh* Mighty…I generally enjoy your comments but you’re not seeing the point when it comes to Depression. Your attitude is one of the problems that make it hard for people with Depression and other mental illnesses to talk about their problems. It just creates even more isolation which then leads to more depression. It is NOT A WEAKNESS. It is a DISEASE. Would you say that someone who had Diabetes? That they are just too weak and should ’snap out of it’?
“In some cases” … *sigh* Again…by “some cases” do you mean those who are mentally ill? Because in that case EVERY time a person with depression loses their fight with the disease it is not their fault.
I’m not against personal responsibility and I do my best to never use my disease as an excuse for any of my behavior. But in reality there are chemical imbalances that create some of my behavior. And not just feeling sad. . . feeling like just the act of getting out of bed is too overwhelmingly complicated.
I have a coworker who says that people who commit suicide are doing the most selfish thing ever. I agree. It is selfish. But I also disagree. She’s never had those feelings and has never been so deep in the all encompassing despair. I presume you are in the same situation - never having felt that way. It’s not something that you can just “snap out of”.
I’ve never been ashamed of my disease - but attitudes like yours make it very difficult to find acceptance and true understanding. Luckily I also don’t really care about gaining acceptance but I do wish people understood mental illnesses better.
September 20th, 2008 at 1:20 pmESTShort answer: yes.
Long answer: Sometimes. As always, it depends on the degree. Having a mental illness does not necessarily excuse a person’s actions. That’s why the court uses “insane” rather than “mentally ill”. No psychiatrist ever uses the term “insane”. Insanity means that someone is unable to distinguish between right and wrong (at least at the time the offense occurred) and is purely a legal term.
If someone is “insane” and therefore unable to distinguish right and wrong, I’m confident that God would forgive them for killing themselves. It would be unjust to punish someone for committing suicide if they were unable to clearly see that suicide is wrong. And an infinitely just God would never punish someone unjustly.
But if they are NOT insane, then that’s different. If they knew something was wrong but did it anyway, they have committed a sin.
September 20th, 2008 at 1:42 pmESTI didn’t say it was. But at the same time, it’s also not something that automatically absolves you of all responsibility for your actions.
Surely you would agree that a person can be both depressed and still responsible for their actions?
September 20th, 2008 at 1:46 pmESTThe book had more detail, but the movie had Jenny Agutter nekkid. Michael York’s comment in the DVD commentary on that scene is priceless.
My dad was diagnosed with inoperable brain tumors (13 of them) on Sept. 12, 2001. On that day we still had some family members unaccounted for who had been working in the WTC neighborhood (all survived, thankfully). It was a shitty week. Dad didn’t know at that point that he only had four months left, but made the most of them, just as he had all his life. I’d hate to think what we would have missed if some bureaucratic drone had had the power to say, “there’s no hope for you and you’re no longer worth taking care of. Please go through the red door”.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:18 pmESTI drafted a post for later this week, a post about suicide and what people thought about it, morally. You guys are already covering it and I think it’s pretty fascinating.
Personally, I don’t think it’s wrong for a person who is in profound, unmitigated, intractable physical pain to end that pain the only way possible. And I don’t give a toss what the Bible says about it.
It’s easy to talk about this if you’ve never watched someone die of cancer, or only watched one or two people do so and those people were close to you and thus you have an emotional attachment to the situation. I’ve watched, up close, hundreds of people slowly dying of that disease and you will never - Bible or no - convince me that any benevolent God would “judge” a person in that situation for ending the pain.
But I realize the main discussion here is about depression suicides, and that is different. I’m one of those people who have never been depressed in my life and have a really hard time comprehending the mind of someone who is, and I will admit openly that I don’t have a lot of empathy because I just don’t know what it’s like. Nor do I know what it’s like to die of cancer, but at least the pain of that is something you can plainly see from the outside, so it makes it easier to empathize or at least sympathize.
Anyway. Back to your debate, I just had to pop in for a minute as a break from chemistry study.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:25 pmESTI get that…I really do. And that is part of the issue … people don’t get it if they’ve never experienced it. I can empathize with someone who has had cancer even though I’ve never had it. It seems easier to understand than someone who’s disease causes thoughts instead of tumors.
Could you empathize if I had Diabetes? And my Diabetes caused me to go into some sort of Insulin shock that was beyond my control? It’s a chemical imbalance.
In my case, my chemical imbalance doesn’t cause Diabetes … it causes chemicals in my brain to drag me down into a black hole of utter despair…does that sound lame? I suppose there are no better words to describe it though. At least not in my vocabulary.
Have you ever felt like crying uncontrollably? Maybe it was PMS or a really sad movie. Multiple that by 1,000. And then imagine not being able to stop crying…or sometimes in my case unable to stop the pent up RAGE that has bubbled up inside. Or the anxiety that causes you to throw up at the idea of leaving the house. The inability to control your PHYSICAL responses … that is what this disease does.
I know that there are people who are “just” depressed in terms of being sad due to an event or bad experience in their lives. Sometimes they require medication to move on and recover but often they are able to stop the meds an move on. That is a very very different thing though.
I am not saying that I can’t (or don’t) take accountability for my own actions…I am not psychotic or schizophrenic. Very different diseases, where one would NOT be responsible for their actions. I know what is right and wrong … but I STILL tried to take my own life a couple of times.
The idea that driving my car into a lake was a good idea … is supremely frightening. That thought took hold and wouldn’t leave my mind and yet I was able to not take that action. Because I refuse to let my disease dictate my actions. But it isn’t easy.
Unfortunately, not everyone can shake those thoughts and those chemicals wreak havoc on their brains.
If someone died due to diabetic complications or from a tumor that had gone out of control would you feel bad for them? Would you feel bad if someone killed themselves because their brain went haywire?
Of course…there are all different reasons why people take their own lives and I’m just addressing this one from my own personal experience. I still get angry when I hear of people taking their lives because I know that there is help out there and people shouldn’t feel like that is the last step for them.
There is a lot of stigma attached to mental diseases. Much less of a stigma than for other disease.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:08 pmESTOh and good luck with your studies. I am slightly jealous as I’d love to go back to school … but for history not chemistry. =)
Off to a birthday party for my cousin who is also in school … she’s amazing…going to become a special ed teacher.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:09 pmESTI understand this position, but it’s a logical fallacy.
To quote the Ten Minute Suicide Guide again:
Just because you don’t think a person in terrible pain who chooses to end his/her life deserves to be punished doesn’t mean it isn’t still a sin. After all, there are people out there who don’t think illegal aliens who sneak across the border to get a job and feed their families deserve to be punished.
You can argue that the church’s current position on suicide and euthanasia is a misinterpretation of the Scriptures (and who knows, maybe it is), but the fact that you don’t think they deserve to be punished is not a logical argument.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:42 pmESTLate to chime in, but I sense a split hair.
The only difference between this scenario and that of someone who is terminally ill ending their life because they are enduring a horrifically painful death is time, mightysam. Please explain how it would be any different or more permissible within the constraints of Christianity, when death is imminent and unavoidable in both situations?
September 20th, 2008 at 4:25 pmESTMighty Sam:
If I implied that those who are severely depressed can use that as a crutch to go around acting poorly, I apologize. I have never condoned that either and I do understand depression.
I, too, hold myself accountable for my actions, probably harsher than most people would hold me accountable.
It is extremely difficult to understand depression if you have not, (thankfully), suffered from it and it’s extremely difficult to explain it so that it will be understood.
Maybe parts of the problem are those who go around talking about how life isn’t fair and throw themselves pity parties for the whole world to see in order to get attention, as you said. Often times, these are nothing more than spoiled people.
Some people have had it pretty easy and then they are introduced to real life where you don’t always get what you want. It’s a harsh lesson and not everyone handles it well and those people can get sad, feel down, start to question themselves…that is not the same thing as severe depression.
A lot of people who are severely depressed DON’T talk about it because it’s not widely understood and because they REALLY do not want any more negative coming at them and, unlike some who are stronger, it’s almost embarrassing to admit. It’s admitting that something is wrong with you. In your brain. The stigma that goes with that is not always easy to handle.
So, in some of these cases, the people will not go for help. They don’t want to be fed some drug or they fear that if they do say something, they’ll be dragged off in a straight jacket for the thoughts they have or they will be ridiculed.
Not everyone who doesn’t understand is as open to even trying to understand it as people here in comments. Too many times people say things that, as was pointed out earlier, are totally counterproductive.
Telling a person who is severely depressed to get over it, to quit whining, to stop acting like they have it worse than anyone else or, my favorite, to get over themselves–stop feeling sorry for themselves, is probably the worst thing anyone can do.
castocreations said:
That’s closer than I’ll ever get to explaining it. So, I guess I’ll admit that at one point in my life, I, too, thought about driving myself right through a guard rail. When I started driving along, I was not thinking these thoughts. As I drove, however, I started crying uncontrollably for no damn reason at all, (meaning, there wasn’t any immediate event that triggered this), and the idea of plowing through the guard rail and ending it all in a fiery, twisting metal death seemed like a really, really, really, really, really good idea. As casto, I fought that off with everything I had. It was NOT easy.
One second, you’re just going for a drive. The next second, you’re using every thing you have to stop those horrible, dangerous thought processes going on.
And while I understand that as a high school teacher you see all sorts, Emo kids I’m sure, and you meant it lightheartedly, those who are truly, severely depressed, do NOT want to be that way.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:46 pmESTIt wouldn’t be. In both cases it would arguably be a LESSER sin, but it would still be a sin.
Remember, sin is all a matter of degree and circumstance. Stealing is always a sin, but stealing food to avoid starvation is a lesser sin. Killing another person is always a sin, but killing in self-defense or in war is a lesser sin. A Roman Catholic would use the term “venial sin”. That is, a sin that doesn’t disrupt a person’s connection with God the way a mortal sin does.
I fully acknowledge that a person could be in so much pain that it overrides their normal thinking. Perhaps in that case God would forgive them, extenuating circumstances and all that. But it is STILL A SIN. And there’s no use pretending otherwise.
Also, remember that I am not privy to the Lord’s inner thoughts. It’s entirely possible that my views on suicide are completely wrong and God has a vastly different view, in which case I pray that God will forgive me for assuming. All I’m doing is interpreting God’s word as best I can.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:55 pmESTSerenity,
I think the problem is we’ve all got our terminology out of whack. We’ve been switching around between depression, severe depression, mental illness, profound mental illness, crippling depression, major depression, crippling major depression, and so on. All of them carry slightly different implications. So for the sake of consistency, lets just stick with “severe depression”.
I’m not saying, nor have I ever said, that a person with severe depression can be cured by smacking them in the back of the head and telling them to man-up and stop whining. In fact, I’m not even talking about them. What I’m talking about are the people with not-so-severe depression. The people who ARE responsible for their actions and DO know what they’re doing.
If the church went around telling people “It’s okay to commit suicide if your depression is REALLY bad” doesn’t it follow that some of these not-so-severely depressed people, instead of thinking twice, might decide to go through with their suicide attempt?
It’s like I mentioned earlier with the “Is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?” question. Once you start coming up with exceptions and loopholes in the rules, it becomes that much easier to rationalize breaking them.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:38 pmESTGood thing. See “Bruce Almighty.”
Or else I’d consider you a loony : )
I’m not. I just wanted to know why God would forgive one suicide over another when both face imminent death. There isn’t any “if” about it, there’s just a more immediate “when.” Is one soul better rewarded if that soul suffered longer? Is the person who was partially burned alive before jumping holier in God’s eyes than the person who jumped before being touched by the flames?
In my mind, it’s no different than the person whose body has turned on itself and is thus being eaten alive by cancer. What percentage of that body must be consumed by the disease before it is no longer considered a suicide, but a point betwen a rock and a hard place with no way out?
Is the thought of having one’s body consumed by cancer any less terrifying than the thought of having it consumed by flame? Eaten alive or burned alive, as it were? Whose place is it to judge that “no choice left” threshold, and its definition as sin, but God?
Just musings for the consideration of us all, mightysam. When you’ve worked in health care (in some capacity) for as long as I have (did) you really develop strong opinions regarding God’s mercy.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:49 pmESTWarnock should change her name to Warlock. Lady Warlock.
September 20th, 2008 at 6:49 pmESTHmm–people with severe health disabilities need to be offed because they are consuming too many of societies resources, much more than they are giving back. Okay–let’s accept that as a given. Considering the high price of warehousing repeat offenders in our prisons, why don’t we apply the same standards to them? Its far cheaper in the long run to simply euthanize (euphemism for execute) them, depending upon what they’ve been incarcerated for. Certain types of offenders are much more likely to engage in the same types of criminal activity when they are released from prison.
Really people, do you really want to live in a society that can decide to exterminate you if they determine that you will be a net drain rather than a surplus?
But I do admit that it does have some attractive features. After all, if this social calculus was strictly observed most of our political class would be exterminated in record time.
September 20th, 2008 at 7:09 pmESTAdditionally, the suicides are the only souls in Dante’s Hell who are not reunited with their bodies. Their souls are imprisoned in rotting, gnarly plants and trees which “bleed” if a branch is snapped. They will be reunited with their bodies on Judgment Day (as will all souls) but they will not actually get to inhabit their bodies. Their bodies will be slung over the thorny branches of the trees that confine their souls. This will cause them further torment — the torment of longing and regret.
Interestingly, the suicide who speaks with Dante and his teacher took his own life because he had lost all his money, possessions, and status. He felt “scorn” for his reduced circumstances and his smaller life. One could possibly make the argument that this scorn was actually depression, but Dante’s tone is more akin to intolerance and pride than mental illness. I wonder what Dante would have made of our present view of depression being a problem with seratonin uptake and therefore an illness caused by a physical condition; and whether he would have differentiated between the punishment for a suicide caused by willfulness and one due to illness.
[Sorry this is so far after the original comment. I just got to thinking about it.]
September 20th, 2008 at 8:04 pmESTmightysamurai–
“I’m not saying, nor have I ever said, that a person with severe depression can be cured by smacking them in the back of the head and telling them to man-up and stop whining. In fact, I’m not even talking about them. What I’m talking about are the people with not-so-severe depression. The people who ARE responsible for their actions and DO know what they’re doing.”
You still don’t understand. You’re thinking of depression in terms of being sad. Clinical depression is a completely different thing from feelings of depression. You’re thinking in terms of degrees of “sadness”, and not thinking at all about the nature of depression
No one is saying that depression victims should not be responsible for their actions. What YOU don’t understand is that depression victims often think so little of themselves that they welcome any punishment as just and deserved. They KNOW that suicide will lead to punishment, but they believe that such punishment is just. Far from trying to evade retribution, they are reaching out for it.
I’ve battled depression most of my life. I have a great deal of difficulty seeing any value in myself, or any decency in my actions. The only reason I’ve never attempted suicide is that I know it would hurt my family, people whose lives do have value. I’ve taken a lot more crap than I ever should have, because I haven’t seen any worth in myself. I know, from an objective viewpoint, that it’s not so, but it’s a battle to convince myself, every day. I don’t talk about it. I don’t “whine.” I get by. I am rational and I know right from wrong, but it’s a struggle.
One of the reasons I am not a Catholic is the doctrine of “venial” and “mortal” sin. Sin is not “a matter of degree and circumstance.” ALL sin separates us from God. That is the point of Christianity–to give us a chance to have our sins forgiven. But I want you to understand this: the fear of damnation won’t deter those of us with clinical depression, because we feel that we deserve it anyway.
September 20th, 2008 at 8:10 pmESTmightysam,
Huh? Didn’t you just state that the jumpers and those who throw themselves on bombs for the greater good are a loophole? Who defines the greater good, and who defines threshold for ending one’s life? Slippery slope, no?
So the twin towers jumpers are doomed to hell, Trish? It was suicide, in your black and white definition, after all. Am I to believe, then, in your way of thinking that the people who jumped are burning right alongside those who flew the planes into the towers in the first place? Both groups committed murder, after all.
Being obese (gluttony, a venial sin) or thinking lustful thoughts (lust, duh) is not akin to taking another’s life for one’s own self-gratification (mortal). Or maybe it is to you.
You may want to reasses the spectrum of your Christianity, or go talk to your reverend about the reality of actual, acted-upon sin. I sin in thought when I am jealous of others — do you?
But I guess the guy who was thinking about screwing the hot flight attendant right before the crash is playing tiddlywinks right alongside the rest, because thinking about fornication is most definitely equal to killing others, correct?
That is not why you are not a Catholic. This is.
My God is a forgiving and just God. He accepts that he created me in his image but offered me the free will to make mistakes and come to him for forgiveness.
Yours appears to rain hellfire and brimstone indiscriminately, because we are all damned. Yes? And don’t argue “born again.” It’s bare-bones no different than confession, because it’s all about seeking forgiveness.
Lithium. It works. Know this for a fact. If, as many say, that is too strong or unacceptable to you there are many mood and chemical balancers out there just waiting to be tried. It’s no different than any other medical condition that you have to keep attempting to medicate until you reach the appropriate treatment-level balance.
By the very nature or your posts you have proven mightysam’s point, Trish. You are obviously responsible for your actions and know what you are doing, so continue to treat yourself for your disease and don’t internalize the actions or psuedo-actions of the suicidal tendencies of others who cannot or will not treat their depression. Resist the urge to justify their actions as a defense for your own thoughts. You haven’t, and won’t, kill yourself. Period. Leave it at that.
September 20th, 2008 at 8:29 pmEST14 Karat–
You have missed the point of both quotes. And no, I did not say anyone is doomed to hell. Did you read the things I wrote about depression and suicide? Apparently not. I don’t determine who is or is not damned, and neither do you, and thank the Good Lord for that.
There is nothing in Scripture that differentiates “venial” and “mortal” sin, or makes one more excusable than another. (And yes, this IS why I am not a Catholic.) God never said, “Okay, number six is the big one, but number two is negotiable, and number eight is just a hint.” All sin separates us from God–and all sin can be forgiven. But forgiveness of sin requires confession and repentance, and acceptance of the Holy Spirit. It isn’t just, well, I think this okay so God must, too.
Jesus himself said that we must strive to be perfect, as our heavenly father is perfect.
Have you read the book of Revelation? All those who are brought to judgment before God are going to hell. No exclusions. God’s standard is perfection, and He will accept nothing less. No one who is judged before His throne can escape justice, and no human is capable of living up to God’s standard. That is the basic doctrine of all Christians, Catholic and Protestant alike. We can’t get there on our own.
The only way a human being can be saved is through the intercession of Jesus Christ. God forgives through His son.
Yes, being obese is a sin, and one of which I am guilty. Yes, thinking lustful thoughts is a sin. Yes, my often snarky, mean comments are sinful. These all separate me from God. All sins can be forgiven except rejection of the Holy Spirit. You seem to have missed that part of the message.
It is attractive to believe that God is going to excuse–not forgive, which implies confession and repentance, but excuse–whatever sin we most cling to. We WANT God to give us a pass for whatever we do. Your “god” may excuse things, but He is not the God of Scripture. And no, God does not rain fire and brimstone on anyone.
My message was one of repentance and forgiveness. Yours is one of hate. It is yourself you need to reassess.
September 20th, 2008 at 9:08 pmESTHate? Where?
EDIT: Trish, if you aren’t seeing someone professionally, you really should consider it.
Your “we” statements are a red flag. You shouldn’t be identifying yourself with suicides in the first person. Please, think about this. Faith in God is important for one’s well being, but cannot exclusively sustain one through mental issues. Professional intervention is absolutely vital, and I suggest you seek it. You won’t be disappointed.
September 20th, 2008 at 9:10 pmESTIt’s Saturday, and you know what that means. Lots of drinking, smoking and being a reprobate.
September 20th, 2008 at 9:27 pmEST14 Karat–
Here is the hate:
“So the twin towers jumpers are doomed to hell, Trish? It was suicide, in your black and white definition, after all. Am I to believe, then, in your way of thinking that the people who jumped are burning right alongside those who flew the planes into the towers in the first place? Both groups committed murder, after all.”
Right there, and in the “raining fire and brimstone” comment, as well as other places. Including this: ” By the very nature or your posts you have proven mightysam’s point, Trish. You are obviously responsible for your actions and know what you are doing, so continue to treat yourself for your disease and don’t internalize the actions or psuedo-actions of the suicidal tendencies of others who cannot or will not treat their depression.” I haven’t been treated for my depression; I can’t afford it. This is something I must battle alone. (Lithium, incidentally, is a treatment for schizophrenia, not depression.)
I may kill myself. You don’t know that I won’t, because I don’t know that I won’t. I don’t know from day to day whether I will or not. I may kill myself passively, through obesity or alcoholism.
You don’t know that I won’t, because I don’t know that I won’t. I may. I hope I don’t. I pray I don’t. But I might.
I said very clearly that I did not know whether or not suicides could be saved: “Any sin may be forgiven through confession and repentance, except rejection of the Holy Spirit, because that is a rejection of the mercy of which we speak. Suicide may be that rejection, as the Church holds; what may come
September 20th, 2008 at 9:32 pmESTafter, deponent knoweth not.” For some reason, you chose to take that as a reason to assault me. You have a very brutal, black-and-white version of “Christianity;” everyone whose viewpoint you don’t understand is to be assaulted.
“The only reason I’ve never attempted suicide is that I know it would hurt my family, people whose lives do have value.”
Exactly why I’ve never gone through with any of my suicidal thoughts either. It didn’t have anything to do with me but the idea of hurting others.
On another subject…I’m at a family function (right now as a matter of fact) and want to throw something! My own mother is wearing a “Women for Obama” pin. *gouging my eyes out!!!!!* Not only that but my aunt is a radical lefty nutcase and she showed up too. And she has the same pin on. I’M SURROUNDED!!!!!! I actually at the top of my lungs yelled at her to shut the hell up because she was going on and on about how Obama was going to lower taxes for “regular” people and the rich had to pay their share.
Someone shoot me! *grin* just kidding!!! But seriously…I need to get the hell out of here before I completely lose it.
September 20th, 2008 at 9:32 pmEST14k…identifying “we” with suicide is just something that some of us live with. I can relate to someone who has taken or wants to take their own life. It’s very close to “me” and so I understand it as I’m sure Trish does too. No amount of therapy will make me disassociate myself with it.
On the other hand, if it weren’t for my medication I would be a total raving loon with no decent “normal” life. Thank God for medication!!!
September 20th, 2008 at 9:35 pmESTTrish:
And your definition of “hate” is a normal person’s definition of questioning another’s definitive statements and philosophical mantras. We do that here in a friendly, sometimes snarky way (it IS religion and politics, after all), just so you know.
September 20th, 2008 at 9:36 pmESTWell, if He were to choose one over the other, I think God would say that jumping from the WTC is a more forgivable sin than euthanizing yourself because the latter is basically surrendering to your disease as opposed to fighting to the bitter end.
Also, it’s impossible to know whether the people who jumped from the WTC actually intended to jump or if they were just consumed with fear. They might’ve been so scared out of their minds at the thought of burning alive or being crushed under debris that they didn’t even think about what they were doing. Choosing between burning to death in a fire and jumping from a building is a split-second decision if ever I heard one, and your innate instincts tend to override your logic in split-second decisions. In which case you couldn’t really call what they did a mortal sin because it wasn’t committed with “deliberate and complete consent”.
By contrast, a person whose body is riddled with cancer has a relatively long time to contemplate their decision and weigh the consequences. Although I suppose you could also argue that a person who opts for euthanasia might also be suffering extreme fear and stress and would therefore not be totally responsible for their actions.
Look, I’m not saying there couldn’t possibly be a case where God forgave a man who was in such pain that he chose to euthanize himself rather than linger on for months and months. This whole debate is merely speculation. I can’t possibly know any of this for sure until I go to my final reward.
All I’m saying is, don’t be too surprised if on the day you go to meet your maker you find out that lots of people who chose euthanasia landed themselves in Hell.
Actually yes, most branches of Christianity believe that those who suffer for their faith (and I would certainly call enduring crippling pain because you refuse to euthanize yourself suffering for your faith) receive greater rewards in heaven. That (along with the fact that watching a man march stoically to his death tends to convert a lot of people) is why Christian martyrs who refused to renounce their faith even in the face of persecution and certain death are celebrated and, occasionally, sanctified and venerated as Saints.
Recall Matthew 5:10-12
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
(If anyone was still wondering why Sarah Palin still chose not to abort Trig when she had to know that the left would vilify her for it, well, there’s your answer.)
Also remember that Job, at the end of his ordeal, was blessed with twice the riches he had before and lived to the ripe old age of 140.
Well I suppose burning alive would be quicker, at least. I can’t say for sure though, not having been burned alive before.
Well, there’s judgment, and then there’s judgment.
There’s a funny thing some atheists (you know the ones I’m talking about) like to do when they bitch about Christianity. (Not saying you’re doing this, I’m just illustrating the point.) They love to whip out the “judge not lest ye be judged” passage and use it to claim that it’s wrong for Christians to judge others. But if that were true, then it would negate the very possibility of government and even moral teaching itself (you can’t go around telling people to follow the rules of your morality without necessarily judging them). In fact the phrase “judge not lest ye be judged” is a warning against rash and hypocritical judgment, not a prohibition on all judgment. It means that if you want to judge others, be advised that others WILL judge you right back. And if in their judgment of you they discover a hypocrisy or an inconsistency in your beliefs, they will pounce on it. So make sure you clean up your own act before you go around judging others.
There is nothing wrong with looking at someone else’s actions and saying “That’s wrong. Stop doing that or you’ll go to Hell.” You may be judging others, but it’s a necessary part of being a Christian. What Christians CAN’T do is control who goes to heaven and who doesn’t. That (among other things) is why Martin Luther had such a problem with the Catholic Church in the first place. At the time they were selling off indulgences (i.e., forgiveness of sins) like they were flapjacks, when in fact the ONLY one empowered to forgive sins is God Himself.
Christians can make educated guesses about whether a person will spend an eternity in Heaven or an eternity in Hell and can lecture others on morality based on those guesses. But ultimately only God gets to decide. And we can’t know for sure how His decision will go.
Of course when I say this people immediately ask, “If Christians can’t know what God’s judgment will be, why do you go around telling people that everyone who commits suicide goes to Hell? Why preach such an absolutist view of morality when it’s possible that God will forgive suicides?”
Well if we didn’t do that, then people would spend their lives looking for loopholes in Christian morality to exploit. How many people do you think there are out there who think they can lead a life of sin followed by the presto-chango deathbed repentance? I’ve personally met three different people who, when I asked them why they never pray or go to church or read the Bible, said right to my face “I’ll get to it later, when I have more time”. Basically they were intentionally putting off their own salvation because they thought it might interfere with their lives. This, bizarrely enough, is an unfortunate consequence of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Since all you have to do to save your soul is confess your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, a lot of idiots have got it in their heads over the last 2000 years or so that they can sin all they want as long as they bow their head and say “sorry about all that stuff I did” before they die.
In fact I’d even go so far as to argue that this very phenomenon (that is, people looking for loopholes in morality) explains every instance of bigotry, intolerance, and persecution in history. Even though the Bible clearly says murder is wrong, the Church rationalized that rooting out heresy was enough to justify the Inquisition, and some backwoods morons rationalized that God’s prohibition against homosexuality was enough to justify murdering Matthew Shepherd. In both cases the perpetrators were exploiting what they saw as a loophole in Christian morality in order to justify their own sins.
That’s why the church takes such a hard line against suicide. Because if they didn’t, people contemplating suicide would spend their time trying to rationalize why their suicide won’t land them in Hell, whereas if they thought eternal damnation was inevitable, they might decide to think twice.
September 20th, 2008 at 9:38 pmESTIf you assume this about me, you haven’t been here long.
September 20th, 2008 at 9:45 pmESTPlease. Seek some help for yourself. There are programs in place to assist you. If you have been diagnosed with depression and are not being treated, it’s no different than diabetes, and it will slowly destroy your sanity before it kills you. Period. I know this for the God’s truth.
I wish you the best, Trish.
Um… >.> I didn’t interpret that as hateful… I read it as an attempt to be encouraging.
And the bit about the people who jumped from the Twin Towers… I thought 14k was merely asking a question, not attacking you, Trish.
Just my opinion…
I’m no expert, but I was under the impression that Lithium was for bipolar disorders. Prozac and its cousins Effexor, Cymbalta, Wellbutrin, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, etc. are for depression. As far as schizophrenia, I thought part of the horror of that disease is that all the medications have heavy-duty side effects, so there really isn’t a “preferred” drug to take for it.
September 20th, 2008 at 9:47 pmESTmightysam,
Heh. Even with the disclaimer that I was just tossing out some musings, you couldn’t resist, could you ; )
Excellent and well spoken response. I’m 100% with you on the religious doctrine of suicide; however, I have had a helluva time over the years spreading the word that ending one’s mortal agony is a sin. I’ve seen some unbelieveable suffering. I literally scooped up pieces of a woman as she laid in a bed and “liquified,” and as a CNA in 1986 I took care of some of the very first dying GRID patients — before universal precautions.
Now, to go read up on the Inquisition — it’s been a LONG time since my dogma chased my karma …
EDIT: Trashtastic! Traileriffic! I’m too hillybilly stupid to keep up with your edits … I am copying, pasting and researching … thanks for a pleasant evening of Googlishousness, there, mightysam … (grrrr) Y u mak me tink?
September 20th, 2008 at 9:58 pmESTBut, “suicide is painless, it brings on many changes”, …… (great lyrics, and also combines, in the movie, death and sex - 2 prime human motivations).
September 20th, 2008 at 10:01 pmEST14 Karat–
I don’t assume anything. I go by what you said. Without knowing anything about me, you made assumptions about me, didn’t read what I said, and insulted me with all that “raining fire and brimstone” stuff. I’m sure you want to backtrack now, but that is what you did. You claimed I want the people who jumped off the Twin Towers to go to hell, and that is not even remotely connected with anything I posted.
Lithium may, indeed, be used to augment antidepressants, but it is not the first line of defense in depression. It’s a last-ditch effort, used when other psychoses exist.
And mightysamurai actually has it a lot more right than you do. People look for loopholes in God’s law. Instead of acknowledging that we can’t live up to God’s law, we try to find excuses for doing wrong. In fact, I remember hearing a song back in the 70’s: “Why should I ever change my ways, when I can just ask God to forgive?” Christianity is about forgiveness, but there is much more to it than that.The church HAS to take a hard line against suicide, else we would begin to take the same casual attitude towards it as we have towards adultery. What might that lead to–suicide bombers?
September 20th, 2008 at 10:06 pmESTThe “judge not” passage was a warning to the Pharisees that they would be judged by the same standards they set for others, standards they violated themselves. Jesus also said, “If your brother sins, chastise him.” We are not to encourage anyone in sin.
Even ourselves.
Feh. I’ve offended the comment gods in some way, and my 2 cents got hung in moderation.
Let me emphasize, I don’t mean in any way to be piling on Trish. But it strikes me that the way she misinterpreted 14k’s comments as attacks is a very good example of how depression can distort one’s perception.
September 20th, 2008 at 10:07 pmESTHeh. Let me be clear on this–the Bible says nothing about suicide being a sin. It’s THE CHURCH that has come up with that bit. As MightySam hisself admits, they inferred it, parsed it out of their own interpretations. So unless one is into the inerrancy dogma….
Of course, one can argue theology forever, as it’s impossible to prove it wrong. All in what you believe, not what you can prove.
September 20th, 2008 at 10:08 pmESTTrish,
Reread. I asked questions, based on your statements. And I don’t backtrack.
Get some help. Please. Especially if your family means as much to you as you say it does. And if you have children.
EDIT: Amelia in TX: : )
September 20th, 2008 at 10:14 pmESTAmelia–
14 Karat said this: “So the twin towers jumpers are doomed to hell, Trish? It was suicide, in your black and white definition, after all. Am I to believe, then, in your way of thinking that the people who jumped are burning right alongside those who flew the planes into the towers in the first place? Both groups committed murder, after all.”
And this:”Yours appears to rain hellfire and brimstone indiscriminately, because we are all damned.”
Those aren’t attacks? Man, I’d like to know what would be. Misrepresenting my position and beliefs is certainly an attack.
Even a sick person like me gets things right once in a while.
September 20th, 2008 at 10:20 pmEST14 Karat–
September 20th, 2008 at 10:22 pmESTPlease, READ what I said. Your misrepresentation of my position is, indeed, an attack.
No, I’m doing exactly what I just said I’m doing. Making distinctions between different degrees of depression. I think we can all agree there are different degrees of depression and some people’s suffering is greater than others. If your depression is so profound that you aren’t able to make rational decisions, suicide may not necessarily lead to eternal damnation, IMO.
Um, I’m pretty sure I do understand that. This whole time I’ve made it quite clear that someone whose depression is so severe that they aren’t thinking clearly (and I would definitely call what you just described an example of not thinking clearly) would not, IMO, necessarily be condemned to Hell if they committed suicide. That would be highly unjust and therefore not something I think God would ever do.
All sin separates us from God, but all sins are not created equal. Some sins are greater, and thus more difficult to forgive, than others. And in fact Roman Catholicism is not the only branch of Christianity to endorse the concepts of venial and mortal sin.
Yes, I did. And I’m sure there is someone out there who will try to use that loophole to somehow justify his own sinning. I can’t imagine what sin he could possibly use that loophole to justify, but I’m sure he’ll try to do it.
Loopholes are part and parcel of morality. The trick is to eliminate them when you can, and make them as small as possible when you can’t. I’d like to think the loophole I mentioned earlier is so small that no one could possibly use it to justify their sinning.
September 20th, 2008 at 10:28 pmESTI have the definite impression that people like Amelia and 14-Karat are now using my depression to claim I cannot think, and that any comment I make is hopelessly skewed. If so, I deeply regret making that confession. I have been trying to make it clear to people what depression really is; apparently I have succeeded only in making myself an object of mockery. So be it. I regret only that I have been such a poor advocate.
mightysamurai–
September 20th, 2008 at 10:47 pmESTwhat I’m saying to you is that you’re confusing depressed feelings with clinical depression. It’s not a matter of degree, but a matter of type. I think you and I are basically on the same page, or perhaps only on a page apart.
I know that many denominations adopt the idea of “venial” and “mortal” sins. I don’t think we’re really too far on this, either. My problem with this is the way it trivializes some sins. All sin separates us from God. Some sins may put us farther away from God than others.
But isn’t the concept of venial sin really saying, THIS sin is okay–or at least, more okay than some other sin? In human justice, this makes sense. But does it really matter how far apart you are from God if you’re apart from God? He can forgive any sin. Most people won’t do anything horrible like commit murder or rob a bank or rape someone. Perhaps the greatest sin we can commit is in thinking we’re really great because we haven’t done those things.
There is, indeed, human justice to consider. But if you’re separated from God, you’re separated from God. It isn’t wonderful that you’re closer than somebody else, if you’re both at a distance.
If you don’t mind my asking, what on Earth could she possibly have been dying from that would cause her to liquefy?
But like I said, the prohibition against abortion is also an inferred position. There is no “Thou Shalt Not Abort Thy Child” commandment. Christians have simply read the Bible and inferred from various passages that life begins at conception and thus abortion is wrong. So if we’re going to throw out the prohibition against suicide because the Bible doesn’t specifically identify it as a sin, we might as well throw out the prohibition against abortion too.
Erm, no, not really. A little snarkier than they needed to be perhaps, but not what I would call personal attacks.
A personal attack would be more like, “How DARE you imply that those people who jumped from the towers drew the same reward as the ones who crashed the planes into the towers in the first place! Take your black and white, fire and brimstone, Hell and damnation nonsense and get lost!”
September 20th, 2008 at 10:51 pmESTmightysamurai–
Really? Those aren’t attacks?
So I can lie about what other people are saying and it isn’t a sin?
Gee, thanks! I’ll get right to work!
September 20th, 2008 at 10:58 pmESTcastocreations:
SMILE and
HEH!
Good on you, and I’m so glad you’re happy. Lived my entire childhood with someone who didn’t subscribe to that periodical, and whose moods, thoughts and actions reflected such. Not fun.
September 20th, 2008 at 11:07 pmESTAgain, no I’m not. We both know there are differing degrees of clinical depression. Some people merely experience exaggerated guilt or regret, reduced sex drive, and insomnia. Others may have persistent thoughts of suicide or self-destructive behavior.
More excusable maybe. But not okay.
According to the doctrine of venial sin each actual sin is not enough to condemn a person to Hell. But each venial sin, if left unconfessed, weakens the will further and further and over time makes a person more inclined towards committing a mortal sin. And just one unconfessed mortal sin is enough to condemn a person to Hell.
This may seem inconsistent with my earlier statements about why the church needs to take a hard line against sin, but teaching morality is all about walking the line between absolutism and relativism. Taking a totally absolutist stand will drive people away, which means no souls are saved, which means more people suffer eternal damnation. Taking a totally relativist stand will also drive people away because they’ll see the church as wishy-washy and ineffectual. I believe that it’s best to stick closer to the absolutist position, but I recognize that there have to be some reasonable exceptions to the rules or else the rules themselves become counter-productive to the goal of saving souls.
September 20th, 2008 at 11:44 pmESTYou realize of course that by your own standard, you just lied about what I said, right? I never said it was okay to lie, I just said I didn’t think 14K’s remarks were personal attacks.
14K didn’t lie about what you said, she misinterpreted what you said. Just like you just misinterpreted what I said.
September 20th, 2008 at 11:49 pmESTTHIS IS GROSS. DON’T READ IF YOU’RE SQUEAMISH.
Oops. Misspelled liquefying. Sorry.
And to phrase it more correctly … putrifying, with liquid discharge. I was very young when this happened (19) but I can picture it like it was yesterday. It wasn’t ebola — it was moist gangrene brought on by diabetes, and I believe MRSA. Double amputee, and the stumps of her legs rotted internally, so the flesh oozed out the ends. Her legs looked like flesh-colored empty short pants, or huge sausage casings, before the rot took them, too.
September 20th, 2008 at 11:51 pmESTNo antibiotic would touch it, it just kept creeping up her legs and into her internal organs. The memory of the stench, and the screaming (and even worse, deep, soul-shattering moaning) during dressing changes and debridement, still sends shivers up my spine. The nurses (with my assistance) would literally pull tens of feet of green pus and black flesh covered gauze out of the stumps, and then repack them. As it spread, deeper, clear down to the bone, infected bedsores appeared (due to the fact that she was immobile) and those would need to be packed. Duoderm did nothing to cover or help to close the gaping craters, as the “oozing” would just wash it away (I am certain that you are aware that as flesh rots it oozes substantially.) Even her morphine pump couldn’t block that pain.
Since I was a CNA, I was not privvy to the exact diagnosis, but I was able to extrapolate enough from my discussions with her and my research to figure it out on my own.
She died hard, mightysam. The memories of her pain are even harder. I feel like gagging just typing this.
Really? Those aren’t attacks?
So I can lie about what other people are saying and it isn’t a sin?
Trish - There is a difference between attacks and what 14 Karat was doing. She wasn’t lying about what you were saying, either. She was restating what she took to be your position, in order to illustrate her point. Frankly, I would suggest that, if you did not mean what 14 Karat restated your position to be, perhaps you would like to restate it yourself in order to be more clear, because I interpreted your statements the same way, with respect to the implication that the Tower jumpers would all be damned, regardless of their reasons for doing so.
Overall, these types of discussions are one of the reasons I’m an agnostic. Every group has different interpretations of what is right and what is not, so I figure that I’m screwed any which way I go. I’m one of those, “I’m trying to live right, as far as I can see it, and hope if there is a God, He will understand if I don’t align myself with one particular group,” types.
September 20th, 2008 at 11:59 pmESTmightysamurai–
I didn’t say YOU lied. I said SHE lied. As she did. Claiming that I was damning the Twin Towers people to hell when I never even mentioned them was a really vicious thing to say. It really hurts to be accused of something so vile, and it is indeed a lie. I’m sorry, but that’s the truth, even if you want to call me a liar and a hypocrite.
I understand what you’re saying about sin from the evangelistic viewpoint, and you’re right. We don’t want to scare people away from the church. However, eventually we have to be honest and admit that all sin separates us from God.
I don’t like it. I wish everybody were going to be saved. I’m not at all happy with the idea of hell–no one is. It’s intolerable. But it’s real. I don’t want anyone to be condemned. But there really isn’t any scriptural basis for presuming that one sin will condemn you forever while another merely makes you more inclined to commit the other type. All sins can be forgiven. The opposite is also true. Distance from God is still distance, even if the distance is small.
It isn’t about taking a stand one way or the other. It’s about telling people the truth.
As far as depression goes, while people may exhibit different symptoms, clinical depression is a far different thing from a simple feeling of depression. Some people do, indeed, exhibit more severe symptoms, but the people who exhibit lesser symtoms are not less victims of clinical depression than those whose symtoms are more severe. And it isn’t either/or. Self-destructive behavior is often one of the first signs of clinical depression, before the others manifest themselves. It is often not recognized, where the others might be.
September 21st, 2008 at 12:01 amESTWayneB–
How could you have possibly legitimately interpreted what I said as being condemnatory of anyone? I said very explicitly that I did not know what happened to people who commit suicide, for any reason.
I don’t think you read any of my comment. I said, “Christianity is the escape clause. God is infinitely just, but, through His son Jesus Christ, He is also infinitely merciful. Any sin may be forgiven through confession and repentance, except rejection of the Holy Spirit, because that is a rejection of the mercy of which we speak. Suicide may be that rejection, as the Church holds; what may come
after, deponent knoweth not.”
I NEVER ONCE made ANY comment about the Twin Towers suicides, yet suddenly I am being accused of condemning them to hell. Shame on you for that lie.
Because it is a lie: it has no relation to anything I said, in any post. I have been
September 21st, 2008 at 12:10 amESTDEFENDING people who attempt suicide, and trying to explain what depression really is. I shouldn’t be condemned for taking a position I not only did not remotely take, but explicitly opposed. I should not have to defend myself for something I did not do.
WayneB:
Smile toothily and back away slowly. I’m right behind you, amigo.
Slowly, slowly … now turn … and
September 21st, 2008 at 12:14 amEST14 karat–
Yes, you’re right. I’ve admitted to depression; therefore I’m crazy and can’t think.
Shame on you.
September 21st, 2008 at 12:23 amESTMy comment did not even insinuate that you were crazy — where did you get that from, anyway? I posted a Monty Python sketch about a killer rabbit. Misinterpret much?
But, now that you’ve admitted it, why don’t you go and sell it somewhere else, because frankly we’re all stocked up here (to steal a most excellent line from a flick I recently enjoyed.)
Shame on you, for just appearing here in the past few days, spouting your religious beliefs as factual, and then acting all self-righteous when we, who have been here discussing the very same topics (some of us under another name) for as long as this blog has been around, have the audacity to question your “facts.”
And we should what, tiptoe around your comments and never question them because we will be discriminating against you because you have fully admitted to being unmedicated, depressed and suicidal? And as a result, everything you post here will heretofore be considered factual and thus above reproach? If you are psychologically unable to have intellegent, spirited discourse without being offended by ANYONE who responds to your comments at any time, go elsewhere, for your own sake, because that happens all the time here.
And I will warn anyone I damn well please as to the extent of your trollery and the fact that you most definitely don’t need to be fed.
September 21st, 2008 at 12:32 amESTAll I can say is that I’m sorry that’s the impression you got because that’s not what I meant at all.
What I meant, and what I tried to say in the comment that lives in limbo, is that, in my interpretation of 14k’s comment on the Twin Towers folks, I thought 14k was asking for clarification of what Trish meant. When I read it, I perceived 14k as asking a question, not attacking.
The fact that Trish perceived 14k’s question as an attack is, IMO, an example of a misunderstanding. Depression makes misunderstandings more likely, and more painful. That’s all I was trying to say. I apologize for not being more clear.
I hear ya! When I was a small child my mother was very difficult to live with. I remember being surprised to find that most other people did not live with their antennae always out to sense if today was going to be a day of tiptoeing through a minefield. She got help when I was about 12. Medication and therapy have made a huge difference.
Problem was, once my mother got her issues under control, my father fell down the well. Living with a parent who interprets “I’ll empty the dishwasher when I’ve finished lunch” as “I don’t love you and have no respect for you, you worthless human being” is not easy. Especially when you are 13 and know everything.
Again, medication saved the day. My father calls it ‘better living through chemistry.’
September 21st, 2008 at 12:42 amEST14 Karat–
As I said, dear, you need to stop lying.
“Now that you’ve admitted it”? All my posts in this thread have been from my perspective, someone who has battled depression all my life. I haven’t made any secret of it.
I have never made any attempt to shove any beliefs, religious or otherwise, down anyone’s throat. I have attempted to explain certain aspects of Christian belief. You may or may not understand them, and I rather believe from your rudeness that you don’t, but that doesn’t give you carte blanche to misrepresent them. I have been trying to have a reasonable discussion with mightysamurai and others about those beliefs, but you have been interjecting inaccuracies about what I have said, and attacking me on the basis of those inaccuracies.
I have been trying to have an intelligent discussion, but I have been hampered by you and others assaulting me not for what I have said, but for things I have not said. If you don’t understand what I’m saying, ask for an explanation, don’t lie about it.
Yes, if you are so offended by intelligent discourse, you shouldn’t take part in it.
September 21st, 2008 at 12:45 amESTShame on you.
Yeah, Amelia, I completely understand, and I am truly sorry you went through that. I was removed from the home for abuse before my father finally flipped out and tried to kill my step-mother in 1989. I, like you, am extremely cognizant of the debilitating mental and physical effects of depression upon the sufferer and those around him/her.
During his stint in prison he finally began taking the medications that saved his life and brought him out of his depression. By that time it was too late to re-establish any meaningful relationship with any of his family, and I haven’t seen him except for a brief “huh” moment since I testified against him in 1990. And I’m not sorry about it in the least.
Better living through chemistry, indeed!
September 21st, 2008 at 12:52 amESTAmelia–
I’ll tell you why I reacted as I did to what 14-Karat posted. The post did not say, “Do you believe this?” but “You believe this.” That’s not really a question even if you put “yes?” behind it. It’s a statement.
I would never dream of saying to someone, “You believe this,” no matter what might follow.
And what about this:
“So the twin towers jumpers are doomed to hell, Trish? It was suicide, in your black and white definition, after all.”
That’s not a question. It’s an accusation. And I never had any intention of talking about the Twin Towers jumpers at all. I was talking about the Christian beliefs about sin and redemption. Suddenly I’m supposed to be forced to defend a position I never took. But since I’ve admitted to depression, I am presumed to react unreasonably to everything, no matter what the situation.
This is exactly the sort of prejudice that we who suffer from depression must put up with every day of our lives.
September 21st, 2008 at 12:56 amESTI wrote about this on another blog, a couple of years ago. People always jump from burning buildings. So the fear of burning to death must be instinctive. But I think it probably has more to do with smoke than with fire. Breathing is pretty instinctive, after all. We saw the people leaning out of the windows as the buildings filled with smoke. Eventually they reached the point where the only way out was down.
In World War I parachutes had not yet come into widespread use, and I’ve read that it was common for pilots to jump when their planes caught on fire.
September 21st, 2008 at 1:59 amESTHoly shit people - I come back here after a few hours in hopes of some stimulating spirited comments and there is instead this virtual 12 step meeting thing with discussion of suicide, depression, miles of pus soaked bandages, and such.
Wise up everyone - you’re still suckin’ air, probably have plenty of food, a roof over your head and God willing, we’ll be watching the socialists get their asses kicked in a presidential election again.
I had enough of this crap in freshman psychology.
Rachel, it’s time to turn off the lights on the encounter group before your many good readers get sucked down into the dark vortex of dysfunctional human thought. These people are bludgeoning each other with their keyboards.
September 21st, 2008 at 4:05 amESTPhew! Lighten up, y’all. We’re supposed to be friends here. Of course Dante’s Inferno is fiction. I just thought I’d give it another go because it’s been more a decade that I’ve read it.
Now, as per suicide, all doctrinal beliefs aside, can we agree on one thing? Those that are driven to suicide are not in their right minds. We could get into the whole premeditation thing, but really, I still believe we can say that when one has lost their will to live, they’re not in their right mind. They can’t make proper judgment calls. God will be the ultimate judge of their action and I won’t purport to know what He will do either way, because I don’t; but I do know that He takes care of the simple-minded (those who cannot function on a level so as to take care of themselves).
Yes, I agree than while watching someone suffer such a painful death, I did come to realize how and why people could kill themselves. However, euthanizing people who have a will to live just because they can no longer contribute to society is murder plain and simple. I’m sure God would have zero tolerance for advocacy of that.
September 21st, 2008 at 8:34 amESTSo if we’re going to throw out the prohibition against suicide because the Bible doesn’t specifically identify it as a sin, we might as well throw out the prohibition against abortion too.
Suits me. Though there is a specific passage referencing miscarriage as the unintentional result of the actions of another as a crime, in Exodus. Yet nothing about the intentional inducement of miscarriage as sin. And there are several references to suicides in the Bible, but none to suicide as sin. What your you and/or religion cares to believe is certainly the business of you and/or your religion. What your religion wants to attempt to enforce on others is the business of society as a whole.
Now, by WE I have to assume you mean THE CHURCH. Of which, I note, not remotely all are members, regardless of which church you care to name. And said differing churches do themselves differ in doctrines and their interpretations of said Bible, and in the inerrancy of derived and inferred doctrines, and even in the inerrancy of overtly stated doctrines and principles, especially as to same being turned into laws.
So no, WE do not have to assume anything, or place any weight at all in the inferences of religionists centuries dead. YOU may have your opinion that PRESUMES to know the mind of God. Others may share that opinion in some or all details and regards…or not. The use of the authorial WE I must presume to be a rhetorical device meant to imply you are speaking with authority for a larger group. But that device is being used in a way that implies it speaks for humanity in general, and being a member of same, I explicitly dissent from inclusion in the subset. I need not (and do not) accept the inferences of Aquinas and company (or of a certain disturbed and himself thoroughly amoral disturbed thirteenth-century Italian poet/politician/pharmacist, for you Dante-referencers), as being definitive of anything that should have any definitive authority in shaping my own thoughts or legal rights. Some claim derived divine authorities on inference–I accept neither the derivations nor the inferences.
In short, I don’t care what you or anyone else believes the Bible says–it’s a basis for theological discussion (or argument) but not one that anyone outside the church need place any weight in at all, and those inside the church must assess for themselves via church doctrines and their own acceptance of same.
In the context of principles of law, suicide is self-homicide, with no possibility of trying the offender–nor of the accused having any chance to put on a defense of justifiability. It is therefore a non-crime. Assisting a suicide is a problematical crime due to the absence of the state’s star witness. “Voluntary euthanasia” is just fancy words for suicide and assisted suicide. The request and consent of the “victim” is the defining factor.
Euthanasia that is NOT assisted suicide OTOH–where the request and consent and wishes of the “victim” are lacking, and presumed on their behalf, where the “voluntary” part vanishes–is clearly homicide. And that charge is subject to the same defenses as any homicide.
Those that are driven to suicide are not in their right minds.
Can’t agree with that. Maybe, maybe not, entirely situational. Sanity is a LEGAL construct, and to weight suicide above all other considerations as a measure of sanity (or lack thereof) on an absolute basis is clearly a leap before the facts. Indeed, one of the highest virtues is to place the life of another above one’s own, and act accordingly at the cost of your own life. Even the Bible says so. (John 15:13)
Indeed, what is martyrdom in the Church but suicide on behalf of the Church, and what was the Crucifixion but the most notable example of assisted suicide in history? Heh.
September 21st, 2008 at 9:32 amESTIn my opinion, any doctrine that even implies that a person can seperate themselves from ‘GOD’, through thier own will and actions, is in grave err.
Can a limb will itself cut off from the body?
September 21st, 2008 at 10:29 amESTAnd now for something completely different:
September 21st, 2008 at 11:09 amESTWow! Those ladies don’t like her very much, do they?
September 21st, 2008 at 11:20 amESTThis is why I so dislike the internet, cell phones, text messaging. On one hand, all of these devices have allowed us to know (in some ways) people we might not have ever had the good fortune to meet. But, just as often as we come together in joyous noise, there is an equal amount of bitter, contemptuous words hurled at one another.
I truly believe the problem is the simple lack of real human interaction. Nothing like being able to see the look on a friend’s face when you challenge their beliefs; makes it all so much more palatable as you wouldn’t want to offend a good friend and say something too off the cuff. But here, in cyberspace, people just seem to let it fly.
I am a Christian and I appreciate learning as much as I can, especially via other people’s interpretation of the Bible. But there is no right or wrong to any of this. The answers will be there for us someday. In the meantime, I prefer to think of the Bible as a love letter to all of us. Really, that is what it is all about; God “commanded” us to love one another.
Always come from the position of love, and you can’t go wrong.
September 21st, 2008 at 11:29 amESTRe: Hockey Moms for Truth
Thanks for that Rickl. Those accents were spot on! And the “Story book knit” sweaters…hilarious!
Thanks again!
September 21st, 2008 at 11:35 amESTOk, Trish, I realize I’m probably wasting my time, but I really hate people throwing out accusations of lying, when misinterpretation is so much more likely the case.
First of all, I would like to address a misinterpretation that YOU have of what I have said (and I believe 14 K as well): I did not say that YOU condemned anyone to hell. I said that, in my understanding, your post implied that they were going to be damned. I hoped you would go back and reread it so I would not have to type out an analysis. Note that implying is not the same as condemning. Condemning is a lot more personal, and would have involved some permutation of “I think you(they) DESERVE to go to HELL”. Obviously, you did not say that.
Here is the portion of your post way back at 10:30 PM on the 19th that 14 Karat and I were referring to, just to put it in mind:
In the first of these two paragraphs, you state that we ALL deserve to be punished, no exceptions. Then, you point out that, even though we all fall short, there is a way out. However, your way out depends on confession and repentance. Since the suicide does not get a chance to do this, then by the very logic that has been used many times to show that suicide is the only sin that cannot be forgiven, your STATEMENT (obviously, by your later posts, not your belief) implies that the Tower jumpers, because they are a subset of all suicides, must be damned. No, you did not mention them in the post, but they had been mentioned in previous posts, and 14 Karat just linked them together, as a logical outcome of the statement above.
Yes, I realize that you included a bit about suicide at the end of that, but the problem is, that part is negated by what came immediately before. There, I think, may be part of the problem. You tried to put a disclaimer there, but did not realize that your previous few sentences were so ironclad as to negate such a disclaimer, without having added some clarifications first. One possible clarification would have been a declaration that people get a chance to repent AFTER they are dead. Now, I will readily admit to being far less familiar with the subject than many people here, but I have never heard any such possibility that didn’t come in the form of fiction. Maybe that’s what you meant, but all we had to work with were the words that appeared here.
September 21st, 2008 at 11:40 amESTThat Hockey Moms for Truth bit is hilarious. Just what I needed after getting tired-head reading all the heavy talk about depression/suicide.
Not that its not good talk, it just gave me tired-head.
September 21st, 2008 at 12:16 pmESTI’m hoping the McCain camp’s strategy is to give Palin more and more press as the election approaches.
McCain could certainly use another boost in the polls like he got from the Palin-mania after the RNC convention.
Palin’s interview with Katie Couric is coming up in a week. The interview will be aired on September 29 and 30 on the CBS Evening News and on the CBS Early Show.
* * *
Couric’s interview material will be aired Sept. 29 and 30 on the “CBS Evening News” and “The Early Show.”
It’s timed for just before the Oct. 2 vice presidential debate between Palin and Democrat Joe Biden.
* * *
Via Yahoo News:
Watch Drudge to post the CBS Evening News ratings after the interview. The mere presence of Sarah Palin gave huge ratings boosts to the RNC Convention, ABC News and Hannity and Colmes.
September 21st, 2008 at 12:17 pmESTmightysamuri —
“In reality, the only reason the church takes such a seemingly hardline stance against sin is because if they didn’t, people would go around actively looking for loopholes in the rules that would allow them to sin without fear of consequences.”
Uh, no. Athiests can and do live very moral lives and very religious people can and do go around actively looking for loopholes. Cardinal Richelieu springs to mind.
The church takes a hard line for purposes of control. You and I have different opinions on that point.
September 21st, 2008 at 1:20 pmEST
September 21st, 2008 at 1:25 pmESTOkay, I want to make sure I got this straight and didn’t misinterpret anything, dear:
I am lying about you, as are others. YES/NO
I am out to get (silence) you, as is anyone who questions your comments or assertions. YES/NO
I am persecuting you. YES/NO
Thank you for making my treatment point for me.
And don’t worry, dear, I won’t be ordering up an interaction from you again. Some may enjoy a double waffle cone of “Chock Full of Nuts” on occasion, but I’m pretty much a hot-fudge sundae with whipped cream and multi-colored sprinkles girl, myself. Nuts tend to constipate me.
DEAR. HEH.
September 21st, 2008 at 1:37 pmESTWell, I never got past the dog picture. Too stupid, I guess for these weighty matters.
Where’s my corn likker?
September 21st, 2008 at 1:51 pmESTUh, yes.
I didn’t say atheists, I said people.
If the church didn’t take a hard line stance against sin, PEOPLE would spend their lives looking for loopholes in the rules.
And atheists are not above this principle either. They are just as apt to look for loopholes in the rules (ANY rules) wherever they can find them. So unless you intend to argue that atheists are not people…
So does the government. Shall we stop believing in the government? Act like it has no right to tell us what to do?
September 21st, 2008 at 2:08 pmESTBravo WayneB. Eloquently stated; you hammered that nail home, and thanks for doing that. I lost my desire to provide an explanation regarding inferring a logical progression from a particular statement after being called a liar.
Tully, huh. Wow. Never thought of it that way. That’s interesting, to say the least. He willingly accepted his death as the will of his heavenly father … “Jesus did not run away from this danger” (cf. Mark 14:33b-36),
mightysam, could you elaborate on this one? I can admit to a Catholic child’s perspective on martyrdom (you accept is as presented, basically), but this is a lot to consider. I’m sorry to thrust you into the role of “wise man” and “Christianity scholar,” but even if I don’t agree with all of your thoughts I appreciate reading and mulling them over.
September 21st, 2008 at 2:41 pmEST“It’s Saturday, and you know what that means. Lots of drinking, smoking and being a reprobate.”
you say that as if its a BAD thing!
September 21st, 2008 at 2:51 pmESTI did my drinking and reprobating on Friday. I couldn’t wait ’til Saturday.
September 21st, 2008 at 3:12 pmESTWell, I would say it depends on precisely what kind of “martyrdom” you’re talking about.
In early Christianity, when the Romans were still the big boys in charge, Christians used to intentionally heckle and harass Roman citizens. The idea was to attract the attention of the Roman authorities who would then put the Christian hecklers to death, I guess for just being all around douche bags. Legend has it that at one of these incidents a Christian man shouted, “I want to die! I am a Christian!” and a Roman official responded, “If they wanted to kill themselves, there were plenty of cliffs they could jump off.”
THAT I would definitely call suicide on behalf of the church, not martyrdom on behalf of the faith.
On the other hand, we have martyrs like Joan of Arc. Joan of Arc certainly didn’t try to kill herself or have herself killed. She was fighting to defeat the English in the Hundred Years War. She didn’t seek out death, she was captured, tried, and executed for heresy. Had she not been captured or somehow been exonerated I’m sure she would have been more than happy to live out the rest of her days.
The point is, as in all things, there are lots of subtleties and nuances to the term “martyr”. The dictionary defines it as “a person who is killed because of their religious beliefs” but obviously it’s more complicated than that. A Christian who is threatened with torture and death for spreading God’s word yet refuses to renounce his faith or curse God is a martyr. A Christian who intentionally provokes the ire of his opponents because he hopes to become a martyr is not. That person is just an arrogant fool, trying to advance his own soul for his own selfish glory.
And of course, the crucifixion of Jesus is an entirely different can of worms. Jesus was crucified specifically to save our sins, putting His death squarely in the “for the greater good” category.
For any further queries, I suggest you . Sharp as a tack, that guy.
September 21st, 2008 at 3:43 pmESTI sympathize. That’s the best picture of Sunny EVER.
September 21st, 2008 at 3:52 pmESTBut … but …
Tee hee. Point taken.
Incidentally, I found.
September 21st, 2008 at 4:25 pmESTSpeaking of (financial) suicide - what on God’s green (as in the color of money) earth are we doing airlifting pallets of money ($700 billion) into Wall Street? where’s mine?
September 21st, 2008 at 5:36 pmESTI don’t like it when people are grumpy, so here’s some gratuitous kittyprawn. I know y’all’re dog people, but I don’t care.
turn that frown upside down!
September 21st, 2008 at 5:36 pmESTSoylent Green is People!
September 21st, 2008 at 5:46 pmESTIs it just me, or is the title “ethicist” a euphemism for “closet eugenicist, fascist, and general purpose jackass”?
September 21st, 2008 at 6:34 pmESTRL…love that photo. =)
September 21st, 2008 at 7:33 pmESTHey, today Palin drew a huge crowd of 60,000 in FL!
September 21st, 2008 at 8:13 pmESTwow … what a suicidal weekend I missed here. Taking weekends off is a good thing … LOL.
Mighty … as seldom as I disagree with you, I did zero in on one comment:
and that’s the biggest beef I have with any religion. I do believe in God … but he’s never yet contacted me in any manner to let me know that he’s actually appointed someone else to speak for him while he’s tied up with other matters. However, I’ve been inundated all my life with people who’ve appointed themselves to speak for God, interpret ancient writings, parse commandments and the like. The one religion I do detest shows the gross problems that can result … it appears anyone that has ever actually seen a copy of the Koran or it’s associated “book” can appoint themselves an imam and get at inculcating their brand of nastiness into willing receptacles.
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:31 amESTThe madhouses used to be full of people who thought they were Napolean, Genghis Kahn (remember to pronouce that as Kerry does), or God …. is it much less insanity to claim to speak for him?
I never claimed to be speaking for God. I don’t claim to know any of this for a fact, I’m only giving my interpretation, my opinion if you will, of what the Bible says. Agree with it or disagree as you please.
And in fairness, there are some people whom God has appointed to speak on His behalf. They’re called prophets. The tricky part is separating out the real prophets from the fake ones. The false prophets can lead us away from the true faith, so God warns us to watch out for them.
Matthew 7:15-23
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”
“By their fruit you will recognize them.” In other words, successful prophecies only come from true prophets. If someone claiming to be a prophet makes a prophecy, and it turns out wrong, he is a false prophet.
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:25 amEST