I hate these people a lot.
You know what the world needs more of? Spoiled rotten child-monkeys, .
[Her kid was a brat, so] Ms. Leavey began to practise consensual living, a set of principles designed to help family members understand each other’s feelings and meet one another’s needs.
In the consensual living model, father doesn’t know best. Neither does mom. Instead, parents and children are equal partners in family life, according to the principles laid out at consensual-living.com.
…Devotees study books such as Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn and Marshall Rosenberg’s Nonviolent Communication, and they consider parenting based on punishment and reward structures to be “coercive.”
In contrast, “consensual” parenting is non-hierarchical.
…Lindsay Hollett of Nanaimo, B.C., says that she began to snap less with her husband, Craig, and her 18-month-old daughter, Kahlan, after she adopted the consensual-living mindset about a year ago.
Her days became more relaxed when she focused more on Kahlan’s needs, she says. If she had a doctor’s appointment but her daughter was feeling grumpy, for example, Ms. Hollett would not force Kahlan to wait with her to see the doctor. Instead, Ms. Hollett might cancel the appointment or arrange alternative child care, she says.
…Echota Keller, a mother in Langley, B.C., says that she creates boundaries with her three-year-old son, Kiernen, while “giving him the space to be his own person.”
In daily life, she makes a practice of letting him know what her intentions are, she says, “and asking him if that’s going to work for him.”
Recently, the principles of consensual living have helped her cope with her son’s hitting stage, she says.
When Kiernen strikes another child, Ms. Keller asks him what he’s feeling and whether he’d like to express his anger or frustration in another way, such as using words or hitting a pillow.
She tells him it’s not okay to hit others, but she and her husband, Josh, do not force Kiernen to say he’s sorry. “If he’s going to apologize, we want it to be authentic,” Ms. Keller says.
Tell me that doesn’t make you want to “express your frustration” on one of those parents’ faces with a hard object. Maybe when they tell you that their intention is for you to stop, you can let them know that it’s just not going to work for you. Because you need some space to be your own person.
By the sweet sweet grace of God, Mary, and baby Jesus, I don’t have kids, so it can be legitimately said that I don’t have a clue what it’s like to be a parent, no clue about the challenges and difficulties, blah blah. Much just like I don’t have a clue what it’s like to die in a car wreck. But it’s not hard to figure out that wearing my seatbelt is the smart thing to do and I’m pretty sure that letting little Kiernen and Kahlan (WTF with the names?) act like ungoverned animals isn’t doing them any favors.
Neither is setting an example of such profound personal laziness, which is exactly what this is. I’m sure it’s terribly difficult to raise kids, but as we all know, people utterly incapable of difficult tasks frequently take them on anyway. After all, what’s the worst that could happen if you’re not cut out to be a decent parent - which is synonymous with doing a difficult job well - and spawn nonetheless? Ah, hallelujah, a new generation of entitled little psychopaths. Excellent. Nicely done.
At the end of the article is a list of the Core Principles of Consensual Living (which sounds like a swinger’s club by the way), and get a load of a few of these:
Children can be trusted to know their own minds and bodies.
and
Each family member has a positive intent and desires harmony.
I bet these people voted for Obama and believe he’s gonna change the world, too. Last time I checked, few tantrum-throwing toddlers have a “positive intent” or “desire harmony.” I’m sorry that just makes me laugh.
As for knowing their minds and bodies? Are these freaks joking? Can we at least set an age limit to this? Because when I was 5 years old, if Mom had trusted me to know my own mind and body, which I assume would entail letting me make my own decisions about such, I would have eaten nothing but chewable orange-flavored vitamin C tablets every day for months. That’s how I truly wanted to express my authentic self and I’m not kidding. God how I loved those things. I snuck a whole bunch of them to kindergarten one day and Mom busted me just before we got there when she saw me digging around furtively in my little sweater pocket where I’d hidden them.
I’m relieved and proud to say that we didn’t sit down and have a discussion about how I felt about orange-flavored vitamin C chewables, and Mom sure as hell didn’t ask me if her rules were going to work for me. What went down was, she told me that what I’d done was stealing, and also it was lying, and that stealing and lying were wrong and she would not tolerate such things, and she took the delicious contraband from me and made me apologize for stealing and lying, and lo the miracle: I never even considered doing it again.
Not only because I’d get in trouble but also, I respected my mother and it crushed me when she was disappointed in me. Amazing! If that’s what they call “coercion,” and it’s wrong, then screw it all, we’re doomed.
I wonder what little Kiernen and Kahlan will do the first time a cop pulls them over for speeding, or when their first boss shares his intentions that just aren’t going to work for them. Authority is wrong! Respect mah feelings!
Anyway. I figured some of you hillbillies who didn’t get all your abortions might have something to say about this “consensual living” technique of utterly destroying society.
(Tip of the Chuck Norris Unique Hidden Gusset to commenter Marc for that last line. I still laugh about it all these months later.)
Sounds like a lotta leather deficiency to me. The leather belt kind to be exact.
March 31st, 2009 at 12:04 pmESTFirst Mom for being an idiot,then Dad for being a spineless, limp-wristed, idiocy-facilitator, and then the kids for their own good.
Children without proper parenting grow up to be
March 31st, 2009 at 12:06 pmESTchainsaw wielding death beasts.
This version should be more correct.
Now to be crass: what the fuck is wrong with these people? Your children are not, I repeat NOT, adults. They are self-centered black holes of me-my-mine. I love my children beyond reason, but if I treated them this way, I would expect to find myself swallowing a 12-gauge round of buckshot to put me out of my misery. Here are my rules of parenting in short:
1) Mommy and daddy are boss. You will obey them.
Being genuinely sorry is a requirement when you screw up, but it is not sufficient to remove the deserved punishment.
2) You will not play one parent versus another, or attempt to get permission from one after having been denied by another.
3) You will clean up the toys you put away.
4) You will not strike a sibling, parents, grandparents, or anyone else. (I suspend this rule when another kid takes a swing at my child. They are free to protect themselves and I will kick the ass of anyone who says otherwise.)
5) You will be respectful.
6) Should you follow 1-5, life will be good for you. You will have much freedom and fun.
7) Should you ignore 1-5, life will be less pleasant: no TV, no computer, no bike, no friends, no pretty much anything that you actually enjoy until you’ve (a) apologized and (b) served out your sentence
9) Hug and kiss your kids every day and tell them you love them, even when they screw up.
This list is not comprehensive and I’m sure that some will disagree. However, people compliment me on how nice, agreeable and well behaved my children are all the time, so I kind of think that I’m on the right track.
One final thought: you know what’s the worst part about this? These Lord of the Flies kids these dimwits are raising are likely to turn out to be real shits as adults and then raise their children to be real shits too.
March 31st, 2009 at 12:09 pmESTOh, Christ on a pogo stick, WTF?!?!?!
Thanks Rachel, now I’m just ready to go and slap some people at work tonight when they ask for the child development section of the store.
March 31st, 2009 at 12:09 pmESTMaybe the parents named the kids after the imported beer or Scotch they were drinking when they conceived the lil buggers.
Maybe that’s why so many Americans are named “Bud”.
March 31st, 2009 at 12:14 pmESTYou said it all, can’t be improved on.
I think I’ll show this to my mother to have fun watching her head explode.
March 31st, 2009 at 12:20 pmESThillbillies that didn’t get all your abortions
Still genius.
Good basic set there physics geek.
And yes Rachel, those without children can have an opinion on how to raise them. They were, after all, children themselves once and have actually experienced it. There is no need to qualify. Only morons as those shown in your post would argue with you.
March 31st, 2009 at 12:27 pmEST“Humans are the only animals that have children on purpose with the exception of guppies,who like to eat theirs.”
-P. J. O’Rourke
March 31st, 2009 at 12:37 pmEST“Even very young children need to be informed about dying. Explain the concept of death very carefully to your child. This will make threatening him with it much more effective.”
-P. J. O’Rourke
March 31st, 2009 at 12:38 pmEST“I love this stuff because if you ever doubt your own sanity, all you have to do is read this stuff and realize that you’re okay.”
- Charles Krauthammer
March 31st, 2009 at 12:39 pmESTAt the paper we get all kinds of names that leave you speechless. The woman across from me does all the birth announcements and she always clues me in when a particularly weird name comes across her desk. About six months ago she pointed one out that still has me thinking about hunting up the parents (and I do mean hunting) and having a nice, quiet beating with them.
They named their new baby daughter Shy Ann. First name Shy, middle name Ann. What do these mental midgets think is going to happen when she gets in school? I remember being attacked and (bows head in shame) attacking other kids for things much less egregious than a name like Shy Ann.
March 31st, 2009 at 12:46 pmESTWhen these idiots go out in public and start bothering me, I always fall back on the magic words my dad taught me:
“Lady, one of us needs to beat your kid.”
March 31st, 2009 at 12:46 pmESTSpeaking as a woman who is under quota on her abortions, I routinely schedule “alternative child care” when I have doctor appointments (which is often). How can I pay attention to any conversation about my precarious health when my kid is doing his noisy damnedest to flee back to the safety of the car? Besides, I’m surrounded by other patients who feel like varying degrees of ass, and I know they don’t want to listen to my kid howl any more than I do. It’s called consideration for others. I try to practice it regularly. (You know, instead of just when it works for me.)
Something like “consensual living” might work when used to a limited degree with a child over the age of ~8. But no way in hell is that shit gonna fly with a toddler. They have to be trained how to recognize their body’s more subtle cues indicating tiredness and hunger. They have to be taught that other people also have feelings and wants that must be considered. That sort of software doesn’t come installed.
Aside from the obvious matters of feeding, sheltering and diaper-changing, a parent’s job is to take the inconsiderate little savages and teach them how to get along in the world. Inflating a kid’s idea of his own importance in the world will only lead to trouble when he must interact with others. Especially with total strangers who don’t give even the ghost of a damn what works for Junior.
This comment has taken 3 times as long to write as it should have, since I had to deal with the hunger of a toddler convinced that nothing would satisfy his gaping gullet but chocolate chip cookies. If he had his way, chocolate chip cookies and french fries with ketchup would be his diet.
And now I will stop, since my monkey child insists he requires yet another peanut butter sandwich. “Peembum kamich! Peembum kamich, pees!”
[He says "pees"! That peeses me. But what I really want to know is, has he had any PAH! lately? - Rachel]
March 31st, 2009 at 12:53 pmESTKiernen and Kahlan? Klingons maybe?
March 31st, 2009 at 12:54 pmESTOh, Squid, I like that. I can’t wait to use it.
March 31st, 2009 at 12:56 pmESTWho doubts that Barack Obama was raised this way?
March 31st, 2009 at 1:03 pmESTHoly crap! These are some juvenile delinquents in the making for sure.
The ol’ leather was not spared when I was growing up and, while we didn’t use leather ourselves, my kids have experienced a spanking in their lifetimes. It only takes one or two for them to understand that disobeying your parents repeatedly (because spanking was never the first response) produces a result that is not desirable. Then they tend to do what their parents want. Which produces the “desired harmony.” If mom or dad ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy is the rule at our house. I guess that officially makes us hillbilly rednecks.
But the kids are turning out pretty good, if you ask me. My daughter graduated from Navy boot camp at the end of last month and is now attending the Defense Language Institute in Monterey and my son has yet to appear on anyone’s most wanted list (of course, he’s a sophomore in high school, so there’s time I suppose). So I don’t think we’ve scarred them for life because we didn’t give them the “space to be [their] own person” when they were three-year-olds.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:07 pmESTI would love to fast-foward oh, about 10-12 years when these savages are now teenagers, and are beating the he%@ out of mom if she doesn’t give them what they want, IMMEDIATELY. I would point and laugh with great glee.
I’m a southern grandmother. You treat me with respect, or I’ll kick your butt. In public, if need be. Example:
I’ve got a smart!#$ grandson, almost 10 years old, who likes to get “mouthy” and push peoples’ buttons. He called me “you old woman” about 4-5 months ago. I chased him down the hall of the house, tackled him (all 180+ pounds of me) and held him down, saying, “who’s the old woman, NOW, BRAT?” Needless to say, not only hasn’t he pulled that one on me again, he’s been much more respectful to me.
Never had to do this with my own kids, but this one is kinda special. As in his mother and I both pray that he’ll make it to 18 alive because of his mouth, so we feel that extreme measures are necessary.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:12 pmESTSharon, Would your husband happen to be “Idaho Joe” ?
March 31st, 2009 at 1:19 pmESTI still love those chewable vitamin C’s–and I loved those cherry wafer chewables, too. I’ve been unable to find the cherry kind in years, though.
Those are good rules, physics geek. You have to wonder what kind of world these parents live in. I can find no Skittle rainbows in mine….
March 31st, 2009 at 1:21 pmESTI’ve had numerous friends, co-workers and acquaintances who’ve used variations of this. Techniques include:
Sparing use of discipline to avoid repressing the child’s need to “express themselves”.
Treating toddlers like adults with questions such as “Why did you do that? It makes Mommy sad so please don’t do it again, OK?”
Allowing the kid to “find themselves” by letting them set their own rules and boundaries, then bailing them out whenever they face possible consequences to their own misdeeds in the hope that they’ll learn the lesson on their own.
Every one of these parents ended up raising little hellion monsters. Every. Single. One.
The truly scary part? Most of them were (or wanted to be in) in fields like “child counseling” and other such childcare centered jobs.
I’ve no kids (that I know of) and probably never will, but the idea that this shit is so prevalent explains much.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:27 pmEST@NevadaDailySteve:
March 31st, 2009 at 1:27 pmESTDid you pick-up on the likelihood that “Shy Ann” sounds just like “Cheyenne”? I have a longstanding theory that some of these abominable names get put on birth certificates PERSONALLY by the parents because they’ve heard a name they like — but have NO FREAKIN’ CLUE how it’s properly spelled.
My style of child rearing is to canalize the cortex through aural and, if necessary, epidermal stimulation.
I’ve found that works pretty well.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:35 pmESTTo me, consensual = to the satisfaction of both parties. So, child of my loins, I agree to feed, clothe and shelter you. In return, you agree to obey my rules and become educated enough to survive in the wild. OK, maybe that is the flaw — these parents might not be the ones actually providing the food, clothes or shelter.
You have to teach kids manners, respect, and empathy — they aren’t instincts. Toddlers are selfish, manipulative, lying creatures. I’m trying to train one now.
P.S. Grandma Elizabeth ROCKS, old woman or not.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:36 pmESTOn the subject of “witty names that shouldn’t be”, I used to work with Kent Clark.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:39 pmESTI called him ManSuper.
Thank you, Vinron. I raised 3 girls, and now have 4 grandsons (God has a real sense of humor) and one granddaughter. So I had to adapt so they will survive.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:43 pmESTYou may not have kids, but I suspect you’ll do a better job of raising them then those ***** bags.
As Thomas Hart warned in “Don’t Mess With Texas”:
12) Don’t ridicule our Southern manners. We say sir and ma’am. We hold doors open for others. We offer our seats to old folks because such things are expected of civilized people. Behave yourselves around our sweet little grey-haired grandmothers or they’ll kick some manners into your ass. Just like they did ours.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:50 pmESTUgh. I’ve met these parents. They’re the ones who let their fat 10 year old get in the ball crawl and mow over the toddlers, and who then get all pissy when I evict said fat 10 year old from the ball crawl. My parting shot is usually “Hope you’re saving up for bail, butthead!”
March 31st, 2009 at 1:53 pmESTThis entire philosophy will end as soon as the kids start wanting equal access to the checkbook.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:55 pmESTIt’s sad that I know this, but “Kahlan” is the lead heroine’s name in Terry Goodkind’s “Wizard’s First Rule” series.
Of course, they used the same name in the “Legend of the Seeker” TV series, which is where I’m guessing these braintrusts pulled it from.
March 31st, 2009 at 1:56 pmESTphysics geek,
Nicely put! We’ve also found it useful over the years to invoke the second half of the commandment to “Honor thy father and thy mother” —
“. . . that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee”
– delivered in the most ominously meaningful tones, of course. Even at the ripe old age of fifteen, my younger one still requires a civilizing influence.
Amelia,
Love it — that deserves some kind of Gusset recognition!
March 31st, 2009 at 2:00 pmESTTo paraphrase Pogo:
We have raised our children the consensual parenting way and we have a generation of Me/My/Mine across the land.
March 31st, 2009 at 2:07 pmESTBig Mike: Thanks. I had seen that, but I never knew who to attribute it to. My grandmother did, and she was 4 inches smaller than I and about 120 pounds soaking wet. Even my kids (34, 33, 30) still say yes and no ma’am to me. (I’m only 55).
I used to tell them, “You may grow up to be a bank robber, but by God, you’ll grow up to be a POLITE bank robber.”
[Heh. I think I love you. When I was a kid, my parents enforced the yes ma'am/sir, no ma'am/sir thing and I'm GLAD they did. I can't even stop myself from doing it to this day, it's just habit. I actually said "yes ma'am" to one of the BT service reps on the phone the other day, who I am sure was 10 years younger than me. I don't care. It's just nice. - Rachel]
March 31st, 2009 at 2:13 pmESTTheir kids will be adults with a victim mentality and a horrendous sense of entitlement.
March 31st, 2009 at 2:15 pmESTWhiners on a massive scale and a pain in the ass to be around.
They may even have NPD - Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
“Did you pick-up on the likelihood that “Shy Ann” sounds just like “Cheyenne”? ”
At least she wasn’t named Sy-Phyllis.
March 31st, 2009 at 2:16 pmESTThank the good Lord in heaven that my parents clubbed me around when appropriate. The only thing I can think of that’s worse than dealing with these Precious Widdle Cupcakes is BEING one and wondering why people are meeaaannnnn and life is sooooo hard.
March 31st, 2009 at 2:22 pmESTCome to think of it, why are we raising our children to be kind and decent human beings? They will just get shoved around by these ‘harmonious’ little asswipes who have the Me/My/Mine mentality.
Need a drink.
March 31st, 2009 at 2:22 pmESTall such bullshit. can i say bullshit here? cause if i can’t say bullshit, then i don’t have much more to say, cause the whole idea of consensual living is pretty much all bullshit.
oh, and i have a grown kiddo, and he always knew mommy was not to be messed with. ever.
March 31st, 2009 at 2:23 pmESTOr worse — NPR!
March 31st, 2009 at 2:25 pmEST“If he’s going to apologize, we want it to be authentic,” Ms. Keller says.
Oh, I know a way to make sure he means that apology. Tell him what he did was wrong. Then tell him there is a punishment for doing wrong. In this case it’s daddy’s belt. After he catches his breath from that deep, sincere cry that only a good butt-whipping can produce, he will most certainly be sorry. Sure, he may not be sorry that he hurt another kid by hitting him, but he’ll definitely be sorry that he did it at all…and the next time he thinks about hitting another child, he won’t remember the scolding, he’ll remember the red welps across his ass. Betcha he won’t do it again anytime soon…if he does, repeat step one.
Presto-bingo!
March 31st, 2009 at 2:30 pmESTI guess for some people (those incapable of vicarious learning?), the “Wisdom of the Children” nonsense, like Socialism, has to be tried every couple of generations, regardless of how many times it’s failed — sigh!
March 31st, 2009 at 2:41 pmESTOh, dear — moderated for my mediocrity — again! (The irony of which will only become apparent if/when my comment is set free.)
[LOL. Irony my dear! I love it. What I don't love is this fucking moderation filter. I would literally give one of my kidneys to make this thing NOT GODDAMN MODERATE my favorite people. Gahhh! Oh and P.S. - thank you. You know what for. I haven't been to email yet but I did check my PP page - and you are awesome. Srsly.
- Rachel]
March 31st, 2009 at 2:43 pmESTOuch. This kind of parenting drives me absolutely INSANE! I have nothing intelligent to say that hasn’t been said already. However, I have the distinct privilege of living in one of the neighborhoods mentioned in the article. Oh joy oh bliss - I just cannot wait to run into you and your offspring! Oy vey.
March 31st, 2009 at 2:44 pmESTUnkawill, yes the spousal unit is, indeed “Idaho Joe.”
March 31st, 2009 at 2:59 pmESTSadly, those dipshits are from what we Western Canadians call “la-la land” … British Columbia. They’ve always been the left coast and definitely the most liberal place on earth. Hell, their idea of how to handle drug abuse is to provide free methadone and supply clean needles so the poor addicts don’t share needles.
March 31st, 2009 at 2:59 pmESTHopefully when the Big One ™ hits … it includes coastal BC … that would double the average Canadian IQ
We never had kids either, but as was said earlier, we used to be kids so we understand how they think.
I’ve observed — as most of us have, or maybe all of us — the result of this consensual living crap, whatever they were calling it over the years.
Once when I was volunteering at the local zoo I was washing the windows of one set of exhibits when a young couple and their offspring, a boy about 10 years old, came by. Sonny climbed up on the rail and leaned over to look in the exhibit. Mom walked over to read the information sign. She said, “Oh, these are red ruffed lemurs.” Sonny said, in a voice dripping with contempt, “How would you know?”
I waited for Dad to swat him into next week. But nothing happened. No one said a word.
If I had ever said anything like that to my mother in my father’s presence, he never would have been able to move fast enough. By the time he got to me my mother would have been handing my head back to me.
That was about 11 years ago. I suspect those parents are by now well acquainted with the prison system in this state, having to visit Sonny there once a week. If he didn’t kill them.
Sheez.
Kids raised that way will never be able to sustain long-term relationships. They may be able to get jobs but they will never be able to keep them. They will have no friends, and no one will want to have anything to do with them. They will be alone and angry their entire lives and they will never understand why.
March 31st, 2009 at 3:06 pmESTI have no children of my own, but as a self-proclaimed professional auntie, I do have child raising experience. I always require 3 actions from a child being punished. 1. apology, 2. punishment, 3. reparation, this usually involves them doing something nice for the person or persons they have offended. It’s the reparation part that keeps them from repeating the offense. Apologies are easy to make and easy to fake. Punishments are usually soon over and forgotten. Reparations are typically time-consuming and memorable. Example: Rude behavior at the family dinner, involves shopping for, cooking, setting the table, cleaning up the kitchen for a family meal. This is a lot of work for the adults in the short run, but it pays off big time. Another rule that I have is the instigators of bad behavior get double punishment. Example: My nephew at around the age of 11 was an expert at getting his younger sister to hit someone (it didn’t seem to matter who). Then he would sit back with his angelic little face while his sister got into trouble. I had seen it happen many times at my brother’s house, but for some reason he and my sister-in-law were oblivious to what was going on. Needless to say the first (and last time) it happened when I had the children was memorable. Nephew was totally shocked. But Auntie, I didn’t do anything! You did, I saw it, and you dear child are on double punishment. He is out of college and laughs about it now.
March 31st, 2009 at 3:08 pmESTActually, I seem to remember reading an article that linked panic/anxiety disorder to the type of parenting that allows toddlers to set the pace and asks them an excess of questions to which they don’t have the answers. Apparently it’s too much responsibility, too early, and it makes them nervous. Toddlers instinctively want their parents to make the rules, set the boundaries, and be the ones in control.
Squid, I hope you don’t mind if I use your father’s line from time to time. It’s perfect. LOL
March 31st, 2009 at 3:10 pmESTTwo names I’ll never forget. A nurse friend saw a pregnant woman looking through the Sears catalog and asked, being pleasant, “Looking for baby furniture?”. No, was the reply, baby names.(?) Shrug, move on. The child got named Formica Dinette.
In college there was the guy who desperately wanted to be called “Richie” Holder. You don’t think we let “Dick Holder” off that easy do you?
March 31st, 2009 at 3:13 pmESTWell you hit the nail on the head right there — that’s exactly how I felt — crushed! Like class A-1 pond scum who didn’t deserve to live after doing something to disappoint my Mom/Dad/Family. Isn’t that the primary motivator for most kids who grow up to be productive members of society? It’s not the punishment (people can take that) but the feeling of letting down your clan that works so well!
I really think that the major problem in society right at the moment is because there are so many kids (and now grownups - using that term lightly) who have never had anyone they cared about & respected be disappointed in them and help them hold themselves to high standards. If no one ever instills that into you, how are you supposed to care about rules & suchlike?
Think the little monsters these idiots are raising will have any respect for their parents? Or care that they might be disappointed in them? hmmm, my money is on no. un-freakin’ beee-leeeee-va-ble.
March 31st, 2009 at 3:29 pmESTAs I read this and laughed at the idiocy I kept thinking that BHO was probably raised this way.
I’m certain Sunny behaves better than these little spawns will in adulthood. Who in the hell is going to hire these spoiled brats?
If you really want to give up a kidney Rachel I know someone very well who needs one - desperately! I’m sure his family would fix your moderation filter ;-P
March 31st, 2009 at 3:35 pmESTOf course it’s coercive, you idiot. It’s supposed to be.
March 31st, 2009 at 3:38 pmESTIf you do not discipline your children, society will have to. Up to and including the electric chair.
A co-worker told me all about how he was raising his child exactly the way these morons are. He let her make all her decisions because children “know what to do.”
At that time, I had to hold my toddler down twice a day, pry open his mouth, and brush his teeth while he gave me his best Exorcist impression. He just didn’t want to brush. At his checkup, my son had no cavities.
Moron co-worker’s daughter? Five cavities. He informed me, earnestly, that she must have “bad teeth.” No, honey. “bad parenting.”
March 31st, 2009 at 4:02 pmESTTo echo Chickia, this really hit home with me. By the time that I got to be, I don’t know, 10 or 12, I absolutely did not want to (and almost never did) get in trouble for anything worse than having a messy room, not because I feared the punishment, but because it would let the parents down, and I didn’t want to do that.
I will never understand these parents who just assume that their kids won’t respect them unless they can be their bestest friends in the universe.
March 31st, 2009 at 4:17 pmESTGood grief. I’m a new mom to an 8 week old, my first child. Between the sleep deprivation, hormones, and trying to figure out just what the hell I’m doing I’m pretty sure I’m insane right now and even I can recognize what a terrible idea this is.
March 31st, 2009 at 4:21 pmESTI raised my children using rules similar to physics geeks rules. My daughter and son are currently raising their children in the same manner. Actions have consequences and those consequences must be faced. These people will regret not raising their children properly one of these days.
March 31st, 2009 at 4:25 pmESTOh, you people are gonna love this: I work for a company in Pennsylvania which runs various programs for disabled, autistic and mentally ill people. ALL our clients across ALL our programs are managed using these specific techniques (one of Rosenberg’s disciples is our corporate guru). Even better, one of programs is for people who act out in sexually inappropriate ways or are sex offenders of various stripes.
Not gonna tell you how many of these monsters have been put back in jail because the program they’re in doesn’t seem to really help. But until our educational and human services systems are overhauled and made to rely on practical measures of success, we’ll be seeing more and more of this sort of astonishing idiocy. And best of all, we’ll be seeing more and more of it in our neighborhoods.
….well, you won’t see the pedophile, but your kids might.
March 31st, 2009 at 4:26 pmESTDoes this actually surprise anyone here? We’ve been heading this direction for quite some time. This is the logical conclusion of liberal nihilism as parenthood.
But actually I see a light at the end of this tunnel … imagine a generation of tykes growing up in a world where they were treated as equals even when they weren’t equal. What do you think many of them are going to conclude about equality then? Do you think the word will hold any meaning for them?
No, I think in a generation we’ll have a bunch of teenagers who’ve decided their parents were too incompetent to raise children, and those parents will be the first against the wall …
March 31st, 2009 at 4:29 pmESTCan’t remember where I read this but it sure applies here:
March 31st, 2009 at 4:30 pmEST“Starship Troopers” by R. A. Heinlein.
Chapter 8.
The movie stunk to high heaven. The book is seven different flavors of awesome.
March 31st, 2009 at 4:32 pmESTFor some reason I imagine these folks are the same hippies that let their children poop outside. In the yard. Can’t find a link, but I swear I read that a while ago.
March 31st, 2009 at 4:40 pmESTNo…just…NO! This is like that “Attachment Parenting” bullshit, but WORSE.
By the way, you idiots out there who tell little Johnny that what he’s doing makes you “sad” are doing some pretty awful harm to your child! Don’t you know what guilt trips feel like? Making sad faces at your kid is doing the opposite of what you want. Your kids need to see you happy! And they need to see you in charge! Mother and Father are GOD in the eyes of the little kids, and they don’t know how to deal when mommy and daddy ask THEM for advice! Mom and dad are supposed to know! They’re not supposed to need help or validation from people not yet old enough to be trusted to wipe their own asses correctly! IDIOTS!
…I need a drink.
March 31st, 2009 at 4:53 pmESTRachel,
You are most welcome! (Regardless of where I may wander on the innertoobs — or where you may wander on the globe! — your “dinner table” always feels like home to me.)
And thank you for liberating my comment :). My bad — the poor witless filter only did what it’s always done when I’ve been dumb enough to capitalize Certain Words — d’oh!
March 31st, 2009 at 5:06 pmESTWe’re born wolves and it’s our parents’ job to beat civilization into us. These people fail. Epically. At life.
March 31st, 2009 at 5:26 pmESTIgnorant, dirty hippies will always be among us.
We must be vigilant. When they run amok, we get irresponsible government like the one Barry, Nancy and Harry are running (with a little help from Barney and Dodd).
Oh. Wait. We’re already doomed, aren’t we?
You can’t create a narcissistic sociopath like Obama or Slick Willy with good parenting, y’know.
March 31st, 2009 at 5:37 pmESTRachel, I agree with you completely, but I don’t think those nitwits voted for Obama, living in Canada as they do.
March 31st, 2009 at 5:37 pmESTAMEN!! Kids NEED boundaries and will continue to act out until someone gives them the boundaries they need. If not the parents, then some smart teacher, a cop, or the warden, but someone will give them the boundaries they need
My dad used to say REPEATEDLY, “Actions have consequences, whether they be good or bad consequences depends on the choices you make” I used to want to scream every time I heard that, it drove me crazy as a teen. Thanks Dad!!
March 31st, 2009 at 5:48 pmESTmaya,
March 31st, 2009 at 6:05 pmESTI think you mean Check out the “External Links” section for that entry — “Tribal Baby”??? Spare me. Nothing about drum-circles for babies though — give ‘em time, I guess!
Years ago when our contemporaries were having and raising kids, the one thing that really set my teeth on edge was when a parent was meting out some measure of discipline but ending each sentence with o-KAY. It always sounded like pleading. The kid was no doubt bursting with respect for the parent.
Either of my parents would have been in my face with a firm hand on my arm speaking in very precise declarative sentences through gritted teeth. None of this o-KAY? bullshit. It didn’t matter if it was okay with me or not.
March 31st, 2009 at 6:18 pmESTFor NevadaDailySteve - I am in the school photo business. I have seen Shy Ann, Shyanne, Shianne, Cheyenne, CheyAnne - you name it, they can spell it. Weird names come across my desk daily - it’s one of the highlights of my job.
In fact, Shy Ann is one I’ve seen so often that I don’t even consider it weird anymore. And for Rachel - I’m seeing lots of Kiernens & Keirans & K names. Just a phase. Hopefully.
March 31st, 2009 at 6:56 pmESTSeveral thoughts;
1) People who wish to allow children to “act naturally” must necessarily enjoy being surrounded by savages.
2) Parents tell children what to do because parents know better. If you aren’t at least prepared to pretend that you know better than a house ape with an age in single digits, said house ape should be removed from your care, and you should be sterilized. You fail.
3) When in the vicinity of some child that is screeching as if it were being fed feet-first into a tree shredder while Mommy looks on indulgently, I have found it effective to say “Madame, oil your child. It squeaks.”. Mommy usually whisks the little monster away from the Weirdo.
March 31st, 2009 at 7:37 pmESTThese people have, in my mind, replaced ‘Earth First’ as the people most likely to be the first victims if I ever finally lose it and express my frustration by going berserk with a chainsaw.
I’m sure we’ll all be able to come to a consensus though; I’ll settle for hacking off just a couple of limbs, and then we can all settle down to a communal meal of healthy knitted organic yoghurt.
Hey, I know violence is wrong, but look…it’s all about my feewings!
Edit: [Heh. I think I love you. When I was a kid, my parents enforced the yes ma'am/sir, no ma'am/sir thing and I'm GLAD they did. I can't even stop myself from doing it to this day, it's just habit. I actually said "yes ma'am" to one of the BT service reps on the phone the other day, who I am sure was 10 years younger than me. I don't care. It's just nice. - Rachel]
Rachel, have you noticed that people don’t regularly say that kind of thing over here? Pity…I think it’s kind of nice too, although I have to admit that I’d feel sort of weird if I was over in the US and someone called me ’sir’! Must be one of those cultural things…
March 31st, 2009 at 7:38 pmESTFeewings. Woh woh woh, feewings. Woh woh woh, feewings. . . .
Gunfire.
March 31st, 2009 at 7:46 pmESTI can’t read every post at 9:30 on a weeknight, but anyone notice the irony:
Obama is creating a nanny state, where tax-paying, law-abiding, hard-working legal Americans are treated like children, while children are allowed to live in complete anarchy.
They say the worst thing that can happen to anybody is losing a child. These asswipes are begging for it to happen and I have zero sympathy. And at 40, I’m pretty sympathetic for someone as conservative as I am, ’cause I know it ain’t easy.
Tell you one of the biggest lessons I learned in combat was it is a dangerous f***** world out there, and what can happen to a human being in the blink of an eye is a concept thankfully foreign to most people. Go ahead–let the little bastards play in the street. When they get run over and what-their-nuts are BMWing, they’ll sue the city for ten figures and the costs will be passed down to you and me. They’ll create a “blogger tax”, or some shit.
And something else: the statistics are overwhelming that if you make it to 21 without any major damage, you’ve got a pretty good shot regardless of background. Let your kid run wild, become a meth addict and watch him destroy not only himself but the entire family.
Most people–particularly guys–are still doing really stupid shit in their 30s. What does that tell you about the success rate of this little experiment? Asshats.
March 31st, 2009 at 7:48 pmESTThese are the same people that claim that two people of good will can always negotiate an amicable settlement to any issue - so war is just plain immoral, and building a defensive force just escalates violence. They also claim that carrying concealed weapons means more accidental shootings, and more people being shot.
They won’t acknowledge that often one or more people cannot be trusted - criminals and politicians intend to bully, cheat, lie, and disrespect others and rules. Dreamers like this ignore petty little facts like - communities that are armed don’t have more shootings, they do have less crime. And nations without an effective defense get over-run, sooner rather than later.
The deluded tree-huggers refuse to acknowledge that public shootings happen in gun-free zones.
I imagine parenting by consensual rules would have to be done carefully. The federal courts have held that failing to teach a child discipline is an actionable form of federal child abuse.
March 31st, 2009 at 8:02 pmEST“That sort of software doesn’t come installed.” Holy awesome. And true.
I’ve got Intentionally Missed Abortion #5 on the way and I’ve conditioned myself not to say “Okay?” at the end of my instructions. “Do you understand?” is much less permission-asking.
“It’s not fair!” No, my child. It may not be pleasant, but fair has nothing to do with it. I am not your friend; I am your mother. Someday when you are an adult maybe we can think about being friends. For now, do as you’re told. Or else.
March 31st, 2009 at 8:06 pmESTIn our household, it is a benevolent dictatorship. No WAY kids run the show. Sure, we may hear you out if we are so inclined, and you’re making sense, but then we will steer you toward the correct answer and that’s that.
It is people like this that make me want to jam pencils in my eyeballs when I’m stuck sharing a waiting room/checkout line/elevator with them and their precious wittle pieces of perfection. GAG!
March 31st, 2009 at 8:11 pmESTThere is only one positive long term effect from this that I can think of… years from now, when it will be legal to euthanize the elderly because they are a burden on their families, the children of these parents will certainly take that option. Another thing: these children will almost certainly be too narcissistic to actually have their own children, and will become a evolutionary dead end.
March 31st, 2009 at 8:50 pmESTI have a Bachelor of Arts (B.A) from university, is there a university out there where you can get a degree a BBP (Bachelor in Bad Parenting)? In your first year you could do fabulous courses like Consensual Living 101, Non Violent Communication 102,
and Non-hierarchical Parenting 113.
And then, maybe the university could negotiate a cheap deal at the Betty Ford Clinic for all BBP graduates - cause they’ll be needing to go into rehab to cope with their alcoholism they developed while trying to deal with the monsters their children have turned into.
March 31st, 2009 at 9:03 pmESTSounds to me like they are raising worthless a$$holes. I can just see me letting my 7 year old make her own decisions - NOT! She would be a candy/computer/tv junkie that throws her trash on the floor - expecting the ‘magic mommy’ to clean things up! I think not! Get outside, help weed the garden, clean the car port, get inside and clean your room, do your homework, THEN, I will take you bike riding and show you the world.
March 31st, 2009 at 9:04 pmESTSounds like bloody Montessori-schooled children.
March 31st, 2009 at 9:09 pmESTThe military frequently has to correct these children when they become adults. Just so they understand hierarchy, authority and people who can punish you because you didn’t follow orders.
Time in the stockade usually cures these ills. At least, as long as the person is in the military.
March 31st, 2009 at 9:19 pmESTMakes me laugh every time I come back to this page — best edit ever!
March 31st, 2009 at 9:22 pmESTEverything I could say was said by Physics Geek waaay at the top of this page. Truth, I tell you.
I have seen what happens first-hand with this model of non-parenting. The children it turns out are monsters.
March 31st, 2009 at 10:12 pmESTThis story made me think of the MasterCard commercial that’s been running for a few weeks. It shows a young boy doing tasks with his dad, and helping his dad do them in a more “green” way. It’s something along the lines of “water bottle: $5.00, energy saving bulbs $4.00, reusable bags: free.” Then it ends with “helping your dad become a better man: priceless.”
The commercial just rubs me the wrong way, especially the concept of the man’s value (as judged by his son) being determined by whether or not he lives “green.”
March 31st, 2009 at 11:20 pmESTMy husband had highly permissive parents. His dad is a sociology professor, extremely liberal (in all the bad ways), etc. And my husband was drinking and doing drugs by age 11. No, I’m not joking. He got clean and sober by 21 and has been since.
I was raised by my grandparents who were NOT permissive, demanded to know where I was going, who with, why, when returning, etc. You know, PARENTING. When I told my husband this, he called them “controlling.” After I got done being pissed off, I explained that perhaps they were, but that was much to my benefit, as I didn’t drink until college (and then I was hardly a binge drinker) or do drugs.
F consensual living.
March 31st, 2009 at 11:25 pmEST‘Children are our Future — unless we stop ‘em now!’ — Homer Simpson
The hardest thing about being a parent is having to be their parent not their friend. I can see why new-age weenies don’t want to do it, but kids need it and that should be reason enough. Right and Wrong exist. They need to learn not to expect applause for doing the stuff htey’re -supposed- to do, and when they screw up, it should cost them something.
April 1st, 2009 at 12:02 amEST.
We call that ask mommy-ask daddy thing “scamming.” It pisses me off. It’s not tolerated in my house because, like my father used to say, “I’m bigger, meaner, and uglier than you, and that’s the way I want it.” Sadly the kid has learned he can scam his grandparents easily. I squelch it whenever I see it, but I’m not always around. That’s part of the price of agreeing to let them take him off my hands for several hours each week. That and knowing they’re stuffing him with cookies and french fries and all the PAH! he wants. (Incidentally, Christmas was months ago, but even now if you ask my boy what he got for Christmas he’ll tell you he got PAH!)
Spoiling the kids is the privilege of grandparents.
April 1st, 2009 at 12:15 amESTFine. Then let those kids get jobs and start helping out around the house with bills since the parents want to treat them as adults.
Give me a break. Imagine: “Serenity, you got a C in Science this trimester, you are grounded.”
“Yah, Dad, listen, that punishment really doesn’t work for me. How about, no. Now move, I want to watch t.v.”
Right, that’s how to teach respect-for your parents, for school and for yourself. Fucktards.
April 1st, 2009 at 1:30 amESTMy mother worked at an OB/GYN’s office in downtown Seattle for a doctor who served quite a lot of methadone patients - and the entire culture that came with it. The stories that she can tell you about baby names will leave your hair on end. Her personal worst was the woman who named her SON “Blessing Tume.” As in, blessing to me. Somewhere in Seattle, there is a teenager getting the crap beaten out of him daily, or he’s become a gang member and renamed himself.
Yeah, and we’re working on respect/power in our house right now with the five-year-old. Her favorite trump card when she’s being punished? “Mommy, you hurt my feelings!” Me: “I don’t care. You broke my rules!” Guess who wins that one!
April 1st, 2009 at 2:15 amESTi have 2 sets of married friends that refuse REFUSE to tell their kids NO, they want to talk every decision out and it drives me bonkers! one son took my husbands $200 glasses and snapped them in two! The dad just laughed it off!! did not even offer to pay to replace them! Our son is 2 and he knows that if he gets out of line he’s gonna get the “asster-buster”( my mom is from Texas). that shit would never fly in our house. i am 32 years old and i still say yes’m or sir always! momma scares me still!! dirty hippies!
April 1st, 2009 at 2:33 amESTMother of God…
This hurts my brain…we are the parents,they are the children.Get it straight!
My MIL deals with second graders peeing on other kids and peeing in the hallway of her school wonder if there is a corelation to this article?
Oh how I long for hardass Irish nuns and Catholic school for my daughter.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:49 amESTDid we have the same mother Rachel?
I went to the shop one day for mum to buy milk or bread or something. It was only a very short distance from home, less than half a mile.
On the way home I picked a hibiscus flower, and when I got home I gave mum the purchases and the flower. She asked where I got the flower, I told her I’d picked it. Mum hit the roof! Disappointed. Stealing.
I was only about 6 or 7. I never did it again.
OK once. I was about 8 and a friend and I were in Coles at Punchbowl and nicked a couple of pencil erasers. I was terrified we’d get caught.
These fools don’t understand anything about child development or brain development, do they?
April 1st, 2009 at 2:55 amESTWell, my parents used corporal punishment on me whenever it was appropriate, but all that did was to teach me not to get caught. So I guess I’m the exception to the rule.
April 1st, 2009 at 3:35 amESTperfect! i am SO stealing that!
April 1st, 2009 at 3:47 amESTPlease tell me that article was an early April Fools’ prank. Lie to me if you must. Anything but that there really are morons like that reproducing on this planet. My dogs have displayed better (and far more successful) parenting strategies.
April 1st, 2009 at 3:50 amESTThat’s ok. Someday they’ll be going to their children and saying, “It’s our intent that you look out for us when we’re too old to care for ourselves. We’re wondering if that’s going to work for you?”
As to …
“montanapatriot Says:
Children without proper parenting grow up to be
chainsaw wielding death beasts.”
I disagree. That’s way too much accomplishment. I say they grow up to spend a decade in college playing on twitter and facebook and not washing their hair or clothes before they finally finish up that bachelor’s in cultural studies and embark on their career as a barista.
April 1st, 2009 at 5:06 amESTThe stupid. It burns. I think most of the other folks have hit on the specific of why this “consensual parenting” is mindbogglingly foolish.
(A lot of you folks have the same sort of parents I did. Never had a belt used on me, but boy did I know when I was doing something wrong.)
April 1st, 2009 at 5:06 amESTIs the line, “Because I’m the MOM and I said so!” count as coercion? I’m so confuuuused!
April 1st, 2009 at 6:44 amESTDid I pick up on the likelyhood Shy Ann sounds like Cheyenne? Does the Pope shit in the woods? As a matter of fact I figured they probably thought it was the correct way to spell it, not knowing any better.
April 1st, 2009 at 6:56 amEST“Tell me that doesn’t make you want to “express your frustration” on one of those parents’ faces with a hard object”
a tanker’s bar perhaps?
April 1st, 2009 at 7:18 amESTMy son goes to school with a Shyanne. I wouldn’t automatically assume parents don’t know how to spell names properly, but more they’re those idiots that think mangling the spelling of a name (Madecyn anyone?) will make it more “unique”. They fail to realize that shit still sounds the same when yelled across a crowded playground.
Anyway - this reminds me of my SIL who tried something similar with her first child. If her toddler wanted to wear two different shoes, well she let her because otherwise it would “stifle her creativity” and not let her “express her true self” (or some such granola bullshit). To her credit - that lasted until the second kid came along and the 1st one started real school.
April 1st, 2009 at 7:52 amESTTHIS is why I am fast coming to hate humanity. THIS is why I will be a hermit in 10 years or less. THIS is why I will NEVER go to the grocery store after school lets out for the day, even if it means I’m mixing up flour, water, and pepper into a gruel because that’s the only thing there is to eat in the house.
Kids need parenting. They don’t need more freedom. They don’t need “consensual living” or whatever the hell it is.
The person who said that kids are black hole of me-my-mine is spot on.
I have seen far too damn many of these idiots who have been indulged their whole lives. They are unholy terrors as children and make the lives of everyone within 100 feet of them hell. As young adults, they are the Special Snowflakes that make college professors go gray early and wonder what’s happened to people. As voters, they pick people who are shiny and talk a good game but can’t do crap. As parents, they pass on their asinine ways to their children.
I’d like to book them all on the rocketship headed to the sun.
April 1st, 2009 at 8:01 amESTI always “reply” to that commercial by saying: “Being an insufferable a-hole: priceless.”
But yeah, it makes me see red too. (And what do red plus green make? Brown?)
April 1st, 2009 at 8:03 amESTBuying your children the latest Xbox because they outvoted you and your spouse: $500 (okay, I don’t actually know the price, but bear with me).
Cleaning the blood out of your shirt after one of your Satan spawn bitchslaps you for not changing the channel quickly enough: $10.
Having these fuckers grow into adulthood and create more ignorant touchy-feeley Obama voters: priceless.
To be fair, the last one isn’t really priceless. Apparently the price is around one year’s GDP so, you know, bargain.
April 1st, 2009 at 8:09 amESTJesus Christ. How about this for an exercise? Go back and glance through the posts. Here’s a good one …
“Tell me that doesn’t make you want to “express your frustration” on one of those parents’ faces with a hard object” a tanker’s bar perhaps?”
And you people are the ones that are worried about these kids raises by loving parents growing up to be the scourge of the earth.
There is so much violence and hatred on this thread. Go back and check it out. I’d bet alot of money most of it comes from adults that were beat by their parents.
But no, let’s bash the parents that won’t beat their kids.
Simply mind numbing.
April 1st, 2009 at 8:11 amESTMy husband’s consistent response to this smarmy ad is to flip the bird at the television. At least I’ve stopped throwing up into the back of my mouth.
April 1st, 2009 at 8:28 amESTThanks, Rachel. I even say yes ma’am, no sir to people who look to me like they’re about 3 years old (clerks and cashiers and hard-working people like that). Grandmother’s lessons stay with you forever.
April 1st, 2009 at 8:35 amESTI’m all touchy-feely like those “consensual” people. In response to “You can’t make me do it!”, I usually agree with the kid. “No, I probably can’t”, I say, “but I sure can make you wish you had!” Well, on second thought, maybe I have more of a physics geek approach.
April 1st, 2009 at 8:42 amESTI was a really well behaved child. My parents loved me dearly and I knew that first and foremost; but they didn’t brook any BS with me either. I knew from day one who was in charge and it wasn’t me. You could get the belt for your infraction because honestly, there wasn’t anything from which I could be grounded from (farm kid). Mama would smack my jaws if I even dared try to pop off at her. She would speak in that low monotone, “I don’t think I like your tone,” which was code for “I’m gonna bean you with this skillet if you don’t shut your cake hole.”
April 1st, 2009 at 8:52 amEST…by all of the foregoing I mean that children are not sufficiently respectful of their parents because they haven’t disciplined them any. All I ever lived for was for them to be proud of me. My mom’s been dead 9 years this year and I still wonder if she would be proud of me when I have a new accomplishment.
April 1st, 2009 at 8:54 amESTI didn’t read through all the comments, so I don’t know if this point has been covered. BUT… I am pretty sure the people in this article are Canadian, so they couldn’t have voted for Obama.
[Yes yes yes, you're not the first, but I'll use your comment to point out this part of the article:
Founded in 2006 by a group of families in North Carolina, consensual living is gaining ground in alternative parenting communities and online, including a Yahoo group with about 900 members.
- Rachel]
April 1st, 2009 at 8:55 amESTMe neither, but I *can* judge her as an adult. And adults don’t treat children that way.
I recommend severe corporal punishment. For the adult.
April 1st, 2009 at 9:32 amESTAnother example of Southern Grandmothering:
My middle daughter (who was as much fun as above-referenced grandson, which is why we’re taking the more stern approach) has two sons, the elder of which is mildly autistic. She didn’t discipline him for years, due to an overload of guilt and “I want my children to love me.” (Direct quote, believe it or not).
One time I was keeping the children when they were about 5 and 2. The older one literally knocked the younger one down. I got down on my knees, looked him right in the eyes, and said, “If you hit him again, Grandma will beat your butt.” Lo and behold, he didn’t touch him again.
I actually got reprimanded by my daughter when she got home and he, of course, ratted me out. I laughed in her face and told her that if you didn’t teach him discipline now, when he’s 6′5″ like his father he’ll just knock you out of the way and go on and do whatever he damn well pleases.
I guess I made an impression, because she did make some changes when he started acting out and hitting children in school. I just hope it’s not too late.
April 1st, 2009 at 9:48 amESTFor conservatives, the comments here sure sounds like a busy body mother in law who likes to tell other people how they should live their lives and parent their children.
How bout we live our own life, parent our children how we see fit, and leave everyone else alone?
Well, liberal hippies don’t agree with me raising my 4 yr old to shoot guns and drive ATV’s… am I raising a killing machine? And when they do say I’m raising an evil killer who shoots guns - that doesn’t make me change or listen to them. In fact, it results in the opposite, immediate dismissal of their opinion and discarding of their “well meaning advice.”
I’m just saying, sometimes, it’s fun and entertaining to shoot down the other side… but then, we unwittingly find out we behave just like them.
April 1st, 2009 at 9:54 amESTNot so much.
A: We aren’t yelling at the idiot mother, we are commenting amongst ourselves.
Secundus: If I were giving advice to someone, especially someone I didn’t know well I would approach the subject much more delicately.
3: If I were trying to change someone’s behavior I would marshal all the facts I could, I would lay out a logical argument using those facts, the upside of changing the behavior and the downside of not changing it.
Just how are we infringing on anyone with our commments? Has the Obamanable Snow Job man managed to completely thwart the 1st amendment? Don’t we have the right to express an opinion, even if it is snarky?
How are we behaving exactly like them?
Examples please.
They are lazy, inconsiderate boobs who are refusing to take responsibility for their spawn, using psychobabble and buzz words to excuse their bad behavior. How is taking responsibility for your own actions anywhere near behaving just like them?
April 1st, 2009 at 10:16 amESTMy two-year-old has boundaries, too, and within them he has space to be his own person. And as soon as he crosses a boundary, his little ass is MINE.
April 1st, 2009 at 10:19 amESTMaybe we’re commenting because we’ll have to deal with the outcome of this glorious experiment in years to come. When little Shy Anne won’t work because she doesn’t “feel” like it and I have to support her with my tax dollars. Or when I have to defend my home and property because little Kiernan is “entitled” to take such property without my permission (then I will “feel entitled” to subject him to lead education).
Little things like that.
April 1st, 2009 at 10:38 amESTThe names…first we had the Irish names, then the Irish sounding names, complete with incorrect spelling and pronunciation. Girls being given boy names, because we don’t want them to suffer from being an actual girl. I’ve been noticing apostrophes being put in names for no apparant reason. How about Shy’Anne? Uneek! My favorite is from my neo-natal nurse sister–she was taking care of a newborn named Lil’Darin Junior. Yep Junior was part of his name, his fathers name was not Darin. Autumn Blue is another that made me want to scream.
April 1st, 2009 at 10:49 amESTns - Nobody is suggesting that we pass a law or otherwise force parents to actually, y’know, parent. For starters, if we start doing that, it’s only a matter of time before these mouthbreathers outnumber us and force us to do things their way. We’re just venting, that’s all.
In my household, there’s only one law: Brannigan’s Law. Brannigan’s Law is like Brannigan’s love - hard and fast!
April 1st, 2009 at 10:49 amESTKee-rist. On behalf of all us normal North Carolinians, please accept my apologies for this bunch of apparently-stoned-out-of-their-ever-lovin’-minds assholes. Almost makes me ashamed of the folks in my state. Wait, they could be from Charlotte! Yeah, that works!
April 1st, 2009 at 11:01 amESTIt’s OK for Granny to tackle a 10 year old and scream BRAT in his face, but it is absolutely not acceptable for a 5-year old to push down a 2-year old? Well golly, that’s just good ol’ fashion Southern Grandmothering. It’s child abuse is what it is. And kids grow up and end up in prison because society doesn’t label it as such. Both are unacceptable, but one is being committed by a grown woman who should know better, and one is being committed by a 5-year old. Go figure.
April 1st, 2009 at 11:04 amESTWe’re up to four now, as of six weeks ago. The new one, he hates me. He hates sleep. And when he sees me and sleep together, he hates the whole universe.
What was this about, again?
April 1st, 2009 at 11:23 amESTSo it’s okay for the 10 year old to intentionally insult people. If that was the first instance and he was joking, then it would have been ignored. No, this was the culmination of a long-standing level of disrespect that has been going on for some time and was starting to escalate.
So what, oh great second-guesser, would you have done?
April 1st, 2009 at 11:39 amESTWow…just perusing the comments gives the impression that parenting at all boils down to either beating the living daylights out of your kids with a belt or letting the kids run wild without any discipline whatsoever.
There is a middle ground. It is indeed possible to raise disciplined, respectful kids without hitting them. You can be consistent, provide clear boundaries, earn respect and never raise a hand to a child.
Children need boundaries and they need to know those boundaries will be enforced. They don’t, however, need to be hit by a much larger, stronger, more powerful person to learn this.
To me, parents who hit are as bad as the parents who don’t discipline at all. Odds are the offspring of both groups have more in common than not.
April 1st, 2009 at 11:42 amESTSo what? Ain’t no law says I can’t tell people when they’re wrong.
How is it child abuse? How does yelling at a child constitute abuse?
April 1st, 2009 at 12:05 pmESTIt is absolutely not acceptable for the 10 year old to insult you or other people. Nothing “works” in the short-term as well as a good pop, but I just don’t think physical violence against kids is a good thing. From your writing and quick wit you seem to be a bright person. Surely you and the kids parents can come up with alternatives. Not everything works for every kid. I have two sons, if they spoke to my mother, or anyone that way, there are any number of consequences …
- Go to your room for a period of time with no toys.
- X-Box goes bye bye for several days.
- Television goes bye bye for several days.
- We skip this weekend’s soccer game.
Etc …
Plus, I would require them to stare you in the eyes and with sincerity say “I’m sorry I said that to you”.
All of the above get their attention and work. Some things I try don’t work, but I keep at it until I find a “consequence” that does get their attention. Plus, my boys know deep down in there souls that I not only love them but will never ever hit them. Some may give a hoot about the latter, but I think it has meaningful long-term consequences for an individuals emotional/psychological health. Plus kids aren’t stupid. It’s OK for mommy/daddy to hit me but I can’t hit my classmate? Being adults and/or parents doesn’t give us the right to follow a different moral code. Just my opinion.
April 1st, 2009 at 12:10 pmESTmy sister never would discipline her 2 children. she always excused them - “he’s tired”; “he had a bad day”; “so-and-so was mean to him today…”; “he doesn’t feel well today” (and yes, they would strike or push her when they felt like it.)
i pointed out to her that she was teaching them it was okay to abuse others - that she was raising a wife-abuser/child-abuser who thought he was entitled to scream at, beat on or otherwise abuse someone depending on his mood. OH! i’m meaaaaaaaaan and my kids probably hated me.
you know you don’t even have to ask which set of children grew up to be civilized and which are mean, vicious and miserably disappointed every day since confronted with a world that just will not agree they are the greatest thing to ever draw breath.
April 1st, 2009 at 12:34 pmESTI felt inspired.
April 1st, 2009 at 1:07 pmESTAbout a billion years ago, I was visiting some people who had two boys. The oldest was about 4 and the youngest was 6 months. The baby was laying on the floor and his brother decided to grab him by the head and drag him across the floor. After he had dragged the baby about 5 feet, his mother finally intervened. She sent him upstairs to “thank about what he had done.” He was allowed to come back down when he decided he could behave. Needless to say, the kid was back in less than 30 seconds, only to repeat the behavior.
During the subsequent discussion, she explained that, instead of punishing him, she took the time to explain why he shouldn’t pull his brother by the head. It was much better to reason with a 4 year old than to punish him.
Did I mention that I have never seen a more poorly behaved child in my entire life?
April 1st, 2009 at 1:43 pmESTAlright! Here is the Family Gordon parenting plan as handed down from my Father.
Its simple.
I pay the Bills. I am the LAW.
Growing up you respected, feared, and loved the old man in that order. He said do you did. He said stop you stopped. He said don’t do it, you didn’t do it. End of story. I expect he would have smacked the shit out of me if I ever tried to stand up to him about anything. To give you an idea how effective this was. He never had to hit me. Not once. Being the parent of a toddler I’m already instilling a non negotiable stance with the avid support of my wife. The only wrinkle I intend to add is a healthy dose of sports and martial arts into my kids lives starting and a young age, and once they are old enough to understand and respect the inherent dangers of firearms I will teach them how to shoot as well. My children will not be victims. EVER. And when the zombies come they will be shoulder to shoulder with their dad fighting like GOD’s childern ought to!
My guess is dear Keirnen and Kahlan will be into drugs and selling thier bodies in short order becuase children are not equipped to make decisions until they become adults. Our job as parents is to instill wisdom (as much as we can) in preparation for a future without us.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:16 pmESTMy father shaved with a straight razor. And I am quite convinced that the downfall of American society is the invention of the safety razor. Because dads no longer had that leather strop to discipline their kids with.
I have no kids of my own, but I am sure I would govern the way my dad did. Even my liberal room mate in college once said, “at some point in his life every kid has to have the Fear of God instilled in him by a parent.” I think my father spanked me maybe 2 or 3 times, but I feared that man more than any government official. I feared disappointing him, sure, but even more, I feared pissing him off.
Traditional ways of raising children are traditions for a damn reason. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Millions of children were raised up just fine in traditional ways.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:31 pmESTOf course, dipshits like this never have fertility issues, they can breed on a schedule.
Idiocracy is the future, folks!
April 1st, 2009 at 3:11 pmESTHow we are behaving like rabid liberals:
them: You teach your 4 yr old to shoot? Egads, he’ll start shooting up his classroom.
us: You don’t strike the fear of God in your 4 yr old when he hits you? Egads! He’ll grow up thinking hitting others are ok.
Really? Just because my son shoots rifles means he will shoot up his school? Just because my 4 yr old makes a poor choice (biting, hitting) that means he’ll grow up to punch people in the face and think it’s ok?
Like Ceci says, there is a middle ground. You can enforce boundaries, have logical consequences to poor choices - be an effective parent, without having to beat your children or instill the fear of God into them. It’s not easier to do this, it’s actually harder. Just like it’s harder to inspire and motivate than to dominate and control.
If beating worked to keep kids in line, why do parents who beat their kids have to keep beating them? I dunno about you, I got spanked a lot as a kid, but I still did some of the foolish things I did… again and again, and of course, I got spanked again and again. I know I am not the only kid that required consistent spanking.
With any parenting philosophy, it’s consistency that works. If you spank your kids, you tend to keep spanking them to keep them in line. So when they hit their brother again, after being spanked for it… does that mean spanking doesn’t work? If you prefer to use other forms of consequences, and they do it again, does that mean your other method doesn’t work?
I’m just saying, we are starting to act a lot like the liberals we abhor by jumping to conclusions based on anecdotes an our own opinions of other people’s children. My brother’s kid is a brat. My neighbor’s kid is a brat. Well, maybe they think you’re an asshole and it’s not them who are brats. Maybe they act like brats around you because you’re an asshole. I can certainly see why that view would be a problem for the asshole.
How many violent criminals you see today say, “Well, I’m violent because my Mama reasoned with me and gave me space to make my own choices instead of beat the high holy crap out of me. Boy, I wish she would have beat me instead.”
(added later: I am not insinuating that people who spank are creating a violent adults. Just like I don’t think people who use this method of reasoning and logical consequences are creating lazy bratty adults)
April 1st, 2009 at 3:37 pmESTI shudder to think what a classroom of these “consensually-raised” children would be like. The worst part? The learning of the children who do have self-discipline and understand hierarchy will be negatively impacted because the teacher will be trying to discipline the c-r children.
Yikes!
April 1st, 2009 at 4:07 pmESTOY! I’m about sick to DEATH of people throwing out the words, “child abuse”. Yelling at a kid is NOT child abuse. Do NOT diminish the true meaning of those words in an effort to be dramatic.
The POINT of this post is that these kids are not getting any discipline. Discipline is not child abuse, either. It’s called, “tough love”. Learn the difference between those two.
April 1st, 2009 at 5:44 pmESTWhat’s lazy is the thought process that assumes parents who use corporal punishment are a bunch of ignorant, ravening beasts who are
A) not about to give up the thrilling pleasure of mindlessly beating the frail bodies of their offspring
or
B) too lazy to channel .
feh.
April 1st, 2009 at 6:59 pmESTWow…just perusing the comments gives the impression that parenting at all boils down to either beating the living daylights out of your kids with a belt or letting the kids run wild without any discipline whatsoever.
I was wondering when someone would try this either/or fallacy.
Odd, I didn’t get that impression.
April 1st, 2009 at 10:35 pmESTLee Davis:
It’s OK for Granny to tackle a 10 year old and scream BRAT in his face, but it is absolutely not acceptable for a 5-year old to push down a 2-year old?
Pretty much. That you don’t see the difference says more about you than it says about the people you’re having the vapors over.
Though it looks like you… edited the Granny’s tale a bit not-too-cleverly. I mean, really, you think people cannot scroll up and see this little tidbit:
Elizabeth wrote:
Looks like disciplining an unruly child to me.
Also, where was the screaming? The all-caps is sometimes interpreted as yelling, but it can also mean That Tone most mothers can use to express displeasure at something. That Tone does not have to be screamed.
April 1st, 2009 at 10:51 pmESTCorrection. How YOU THINK we are behaving like liberals.
There’s nothing “liberal” or “conservative” about telling someone they’re wrong. It is a totally non-partisan activity. If we’re not allowed to point out when people are doing something wrong then what’s the point of having morals and standards in the first place?! How do you encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior without telling people when they’re wrong?
And by the way, you realize that you’re doing the exact same thing you accuse us of doing, right? You’re accusing us of being “busybodies” with nothing better to do than to sit around and tell other people how to live. Yet in saying so, you are in fact doing the exact same thing! You are here on this blog telling us what we should and should not do, apparently because you have nothing better to do with your time at the moment. You are as much a “busybody” as everyone else here.
If you don’t discourage that behavior by disciplining him, that’s exactly what he’ll grow up to be.
With all due respect, that is the most moronic logic I have ever heard. If I were to judge you based on that one sentence I would guess that you are not a parent and have little or no experience with children. Because that’s the only explanation I can come up with for why you would ask that.
By your logic, we might as well just surrender from the War on Terror right this second. If killing terrorists worked to stop terrorism, why are we still killing terrorists? Clearly the whole process is pointless, right?
Jumping to conclusions based on anecdotes? WTF?
I’m sorry, but do you seriously not see the problem with parents completely abdicating their parental authority? Because that’s exactly what this “consensual living” bullcrap is. These woefully misguided parents are removing themselves from their position as an authority figure and reestablishing themselves as “equals” with their children. This is a recipe for monumental disaster. Children do not learn discipline and morals from their friends. They learn them from authority figures like parents and teachers. By transforming the parent from an authority figure into a friend leaves the child without a guiding force in their lives to teach them how to function in society.
Plus as a teacher it makes my job a lot harder because now I’m stuck picking up the slack in the discipline department for the stupid lazy parents!
Parenting is not and should not be a democracy. It is a totalitarian dictatorship ruled with an iron fist.
A lot, actually. Plenty of criminals got where they are today because their parents were either total doormats or nonexistent, in which case they might as well have been total doormats since either way there was no real authority figure around to teach them right from wrong.
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:06 amESTThings are not wrong because they are illegal. They are illegal because they are wrong.
(with all credit to Mark Steyn)
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:12 amESTOK, I need to say this, to defend the good parents from the people who say that it’s all either “spoil the child” or “beat the living crap out of them.”
My parents were STRICT. Dang, but were they strict. But they never laid a hand on me! Oh, I may have gotten grounded for weeks - may have been banned from watching tv - may have had my radio or walkman taken away - but I was never beaten.
My parents expected I treat others with respect. If I didn’t, I got The Lecture. You really don’t want The Lecture. I learned that fast. And I also learned, along the way, WHY you treat people with respect - not that you’re doing it out of fear of punishment, but because if people DON’T treat others with respect, the world quickly becomes a miserable cesspool. And that even if other people are contributing to that cesspool, you don’t have to.
I also have to say this - I know I was a weird kid and a hopelessly square teenager - but I was really glad sometimes my parents were so strict; a friend of mine would suggest doing something I knew would get us in trouble, and I’d be all, “No, I can’t. My parents would KILL me if they found out. You know my parents!” and because my parents had that reputation for being super-strict, I was totally off the hook.
The other reason why I’m not all “la la la live and let live” about really terrible parents is that I may have their offspring in one of my college classes someday. Or I may have to share the road with them. Or sit next to them on an 8 hour flight. Or pay their way through life, ‘cos they don’t “feel like” working, as another commenter pointed out.
Your rights to be a slack parent end, as I see it, when you are turning out un-socialized children who cannot be functional parts of society. I may not demand laws be passed to stop you, but I have every right to criticize you.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:32 amESTGood grief — I stopped checking this thread waaaaay too soon! (Nice to see mighty in good form :).)
How in the Heck did people manage to conflate “corporal vs. non-corporal discipline” with “any discipline vs. no discipline”? Straw man much? Sheesh! Loving correction, correctly timed and of an intensity sufficient to achieve the needed impression [heh], can take myriad forms and is effective whether corporal or otherwise. What is worse than useless is the notion that children are somehow the best judges of their own needs — ummmm, no. That would be known as “spoiling.”
Amelia is right — spoiling is the purview of Grandparents. It’s one of the rewards one reaps from decades of having to be the “Bad Guy.” Another is that moment when, in due course, it dawns on the offspring that one really was the “Good Guy” all along!
April 2nd, 2009 at 11:21 amESTWTF indeed.
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:42 pmESTRicki,
“Your rights to be a slack parent end, as I see it, when you are turning out un-socialized children who cannot be functional parts of society. I may not demand laws be passed to stop you, but I have every right to criticize you.”
My wife and I always told our children that our job was to raise two responsible citizens for the Republic. Failing at that we would have to kill them and start over…
April 5th, 2009 at 11:01 amEST