dog-tang1
, I could just pass out:
Suryia the orang-utan and Roscoe, a Blue Tick hound, became friends when they crossed paths at a South Carolina sanctuary for endangered animals. Now they swim together, play together and Suryia even takes the dog for his walks.
Such is their bond that the pair drew the attention of National Geographic magazine and Oprah Winfrey who will feature them tomorrow in a special show called Amazing Animal Friendship.
The pair first encountered each other two years ago when Roscoe followed staff from The Institute of Greatly Endangered and Rare Species (TIGERS) in Myrtle Beach home.
He was immediately spotted by the orang-utang who ambled over to make friends….’As soon as he saw Roscoe, Suryia ran over to him and they started playing.
‘It was unusual because dogs are usually scared of primates but they took to each other straight away.
‘We made a few calls to see if he belonged to anyone and when no-one came forward, Roscoe ended up staying.’
…’They will spend a few hours each day together rolling around, swimming,’ said Dr Antle ‘Suryia will take Roscoe for walks around the enclosure and even feeds him some of his monkey biscuits.’
dog-tang2
Seriously, how does this make you feel? Doesn’t it make you want to roll around on the floor cackling and singing like a drunk person? It does me. I won’t lie to you.
dog-tang3
So where is Clint Eastwood? *grin*
Hey, am I first this time?
Do you think the monkey picks up the poop too?
The hand foot thingy makes me feel creepy.
The thought of that pair walking around downtown makes me feel creepy.
The thought of having a pair like that (say, a chimp and a Neapolitan Mastiff) guarding my family while I am sleeping makes me feel creepy.
Wanting to domesticate hornets and wasps for home protection purposes makes me creepy. Wanting to have them follow me everywhere makes me creepy.
Thats how I feel right now, just creepy.
Radiohead. Creep.
Thanks for asking!
Does this mean that Planet of the Apes is really a prophecy? What with Heston bein’ in it and all, man this makes me feel creepy. Apocalyptic Stress Syndrome.
I must examine those pictures closely for any evidence of space ships, aliens or Bigfoot.
Chaka! Hugs! Now!
Hmm. Monkey biscuits!
I don’t like monkeys
also: if that’s a Blue Tick Hound, what’s a Blue Heeler look like?
There be video on youtube iffen you a-lookin.
That is so freaking awesome!!!
It makes me think that this is a new love that dare not speak its name.
Orangutans are apes, not monkeys.
I only know this because I’m a Terry Pratchett fan. Librarians Rule, OOK!
Rob beat me to it. Monkey–tail. Ape–no tail. Clint Eastwood–tailed by papparazzi.
if that’s a Blue Tick Hound, what’s a Blue Heeler look like?
A Blue Heeler aka Queensland Heeler is a blue-coat Aussie Cattle Dog (as compared to the red-coat ones). They have faces & builds much more like shepherds than hounds, with stand-up triangular ears instead of floppy ones and stockier forequarters.
Count me in the “makes me feel creepy” camp. I agree with physics geek about the “new love that dare not speak its name”.
Despite whether orangutans are apes or monkeys, whoever wrote the article can’t seem to decide how to spell the name:
Maybe it’s all British proper and like, but hyphenating orangutan also seems a bit pretentious to me. It makes me want to pronounce it, “orange yutang”.
(Why, yes, I am feeling a little crabby this morning. Why do you ask?)
Um, no. But you go ahead. Enjoy yourself. You and I are different…
Great photos though, I will admit.
In principle, this should be awesome, but there’s something mildly unsettling about these two, something akin to the , especially in that second photo.
Orangutans are awesome. Far and away my favorite non-human primates.
First impression:
The sweet expression on Suryia’s face is cute beyond words.
Second impression:
Dr. Zaius has taken the first step toward entering human society, by adopting a homeless dog. Hordes of animal rights activists will be overwhelmed by the gesture, especially in light of President Obama’s recent betrayal when he obtained a dog from a breeder instead of a mutt from a shelter as promised.
In retaliation, PETA will mount an anti-Obama campaign in 2012. Most Republicans will be so amused at the antics that they will forget to vote. By a freak write-in vote, Dr. Zaius (aka Suryia) is elected President and begins the subjugation of humans by their monkey overlords.
Damn you dirty apes…..
With apologies to Paula Abdul and M.C. Kat.
They told us this would be next, if we start letting the gays marry.
Folks, this is not miscegenation!
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
It’s cute, but apes and monkeys frighten me. I’d be afraid that Suriya would tear my face off at any given moment.
Hello — thanks for the story, Rachel. VERY interesting… but: Look at poor Roscoe’s eyes. I am not so sure that HE is actually happy with this arrangement. I think that Suryia got the better end of this deal, & Roscoe is now afraid of becoming homeless again if he complains much.
If I were a dog, I just don’t think I’d like Suryia to have control of my leash. Honest I am.
The hairy chimp (orang-whatever) impersonated human to a dog and put him on a leash. The dog had since snapped out of this delusion, but it looks like the damn chimp (-utang, whatever) now believes it herself!
Creepy is right.
That’s how I feel about it.
You asked.
That first picture is really cute, but I agree with Kensington. I would be seriously afeared of the orang taking off my face.
Look at the way her little foot is wrapped underneath him too! Adorable!!!
Honestly? Terrified.
Clearly the animals of the world have started to realize they don’t need us anymore. Soon they’ll join forces and rise up to eradicate mankind from the face of the Earth!
Odd. Given your name I’d of thought it would make you hawt. Unless you overlooked the capitalization of “Creepy”….and then it would make perfect sense.
If so…say hello to Creepy for me.
LOL!
I’m with maya on this one. I hate teh monkeys. I hate teh apes. With their poo flinging and hand knawing-off shenaningans, no thank you!
You still rock, Rach!
orangutan – so will it eat the dog if you give it Xanax? Never trust lower order primates.
Awww. I think it’s cute.
In a picture.
Or behind a fence.
I r skered of teh simeeuns teefies, kthx.
Let’s face it, the dog is the monkey’s bitch and right now the pooch is playing Russian roulette.
It’s like being best mates with Mike Tyson.
I, for one, welcome our new orangutan overlords.
I’d like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground fruit caves.
I am thoroughly creeped out by these pictures, particularly the one of the two of them in the water. That repulsive ape could so easily drown that dog. It probably doesn’t help that I just read this story about how hard it is to get rid of your when he gets big and dangerous.
mongo sez:
That made me laff! But it also made me think of monkeys in research: when they get stressed (for any number of reasons like room a couple degrees too warm/cool, food is served at a different time, etc.) they can bite off their dangly bits! How fucked is that?!!
[hooray! dangly bits made it past the Rachl Lukis Moderator o Doom]
Yeah, not too crazy about the monkey/apes myself – not since that horrific incident with the chimp that tore that woman a new face and bit off her hands. It changed me forever on that score. With the exception of appreciating the hell out of the awesomeness of a silver back gorilla, if a monkey comes on the telly I can’t get to the remote fast enough. Show me the cutest, most precious photo of a primate interacting with – any other living creature – and all I can think of is ‘Face torn off in 3, 2, 1…’
Also, blinding me and biting off my hands.
Yah, they may look cute now, but one day you’ll come home and they will throw a net over you and jerk you up into the air, and what will you say then?
Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!
It is not awesome. Orangutans freak me out. They remind me of one of my uncles.
I go with the consensus. It is awesomely creepy. As long as the dog behaves, the orang will probably not bite his head off. *fingers crossed for the dog*
Your comments creep me – does noone here have any clue about Orang Utans? The name means “Man of the woods” and they are really gentle and peaceful – very unlike humans. Unfortunately a highly endangered species due to the wood industry in Sumatra. Actually they have a lot in common (gentically, socially) with humans – except the violent tendencies.
marla sez:
Heh. I feel the same way about Rachael ray.
German sez:
Looks like German has not read the face-tearing-off-hand-eating story then.
Maya – me,too! Not fond of Rachel Ray. Her voice reminds of a cheerleader who smokes three packs a day.
German – It’s not about the distinctions between different primate species – it’s about a first-impulse, visceral reaction to primates in general based on recent events. A more emotional rather than rational reaction, to be sure, but if you are talking about pictures you want to look at, primates are far down on my list, no matter how gentle they are.
Really? For me I can’t seem to get to the mute button fast enough.
Rachel Ray may be unlistenable :)
This is simply false.
Orangutan aggression is very common, particularly towards other orangutans. They are fiercely territorial animals.
Not to mention immature male orangutans frequently try to rape females, simply because they can. Last I checked, rape isn’t a common trait of human males.
Yeah I kind of thought that too. Orangutan’s seem to be the more sedate of the apes. Not to say they can’t show aggression.
That was a Chimp though maya.
I want that dog! He’s precious! Bet he makes the coolest baying sound.
Orangutans aren’t very big, are they? I think I could kick its ass if I had too. I mean, geez, according to some serious testing, I could whip about forty five year olds if the shit hit the fan like Stephen King wrote in Cell. Then again, I took another “test” that says my IQ is at least 160 simply because some naked lady goes around in circles both clockwise and counter clockwise while I masturbate.
Not sure what to think now. I am frightened. I started commenting to say that my feelings have changed since yesterday and that I’d been with MUCH WORSE in Tijuana way back when I was even more retarded. And, yeah, on a bender the story to people that saw me leave with “her” would be “I don’t know what it was, but it sure was TIGHT!”
I think I’ll retreat to my under desk lair (a’la George Castanza) and get back to sucking my thumb and crying. Cuz, face it man, you are a creep.
The thing is, orangutans =/= chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are a lot more hyper; orangs are very mellow and peaceful. Not that I’d want to get into a fight with one, but they’re a lot less aggressive than chimpanzees. And it’s hard to tell what a dog is thinking from its face.
The females usually aren’t, but full-grown male orangutans average more than 5ft tall and over 260lbs in weight. Plus they’ve got crazy-long arms. I wouldn’t press my luck if I were you.
WTF??!
I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I laughed my butt off anyway.
Amelia –
Long ago Rachel linked this – I don’t even know what to call it – video techno thingee, of a computer generated woman who was balancing on one foot as she rotated, only she seemed to change the direction, and the foot, but without anything ever really changing. Theories abound. I think she had it under ‘Cool Stuff’ or something like that. It’s worth trying to find.
But as for MonkeyHumper himself, there’s really no explanation – just sit back and enjoy him – much like Lance De Boyle in the old days, who seems to have gone away. Never understood a single word he said, but we always had a might fine time.
I was talking with a stuntman once who told me the hardest he had ever been hit in his LIFE had been by the rangutan that was in “Every Which Way but Loose”. It wasn’t that the orangutan was trying to hurt him…just had a little problem sometimes understanding how strong he is.
My understanding of the temperament of orangutans is that, while they do show aggression in the field, and many “fights” have been observed, they tend not to result in what was described as “lasting injuries”.
I don’t know what that means…but I haven’t been able to find a lot of evidence of orangutans injuring humans on the web.
What I didn’t understand was the reference to “rape isn’t normal for humans but orangutans are known to do it…so there!”.
I can’t lick my balls, either. That alone doesn’t make me better or worse than a dog.
I thought the story was cool. It’s THIS, though…that makes orangutans “awesome” in my book:
heh.
They are however dealing with an equivalent animal you know. You can watch two rams get into a fight too, or two lions get into a fight, and you can say the result is not going to have any real lasting injuries. But do you really want to get into a scuffle with a lion, or a headbutting contest with a ram?
I can’t lick my balls, either. That alone doesn’t make me better or worse than a dog.
But it does go a long way towards explaining why most dogs seem happier than most people.
I meant “normal” as in “typical”.
Rape does occur among humans, but it’s highly atypical and the vast majority of male-female human relationships are completely consensual. Orangutans however…not so much. Young male orangutans try to mate with any female they can without concern for whether the female actually wants to mate with them or not.
Orangutans are certainly less aggressive and violent than chimps, but the idea that they are “more peaceful” than human beings is questionable at best.
buzzion,
Your argument doesn’t mesh. I’m indicating there’s a dearth of information relating to violence between humans and orangutans. I wouldn’t want to get into a fight with a 320-lb professional football linesman, either. But again…that’s just another primate, right? LOL!
Tully,
Surely you’ve heard the joke….
Why do dogs lick their balls?
Because they can!
:D
mightysamurai,
I wasn’t making a point that they were “more peaceful”…but if we want to go there, I’d argue that it’s culture that causes human males to suppress their natural desire to reproduce. Last I checked, there is no evidence that an orangutan has managed to convince another group to attempt genocide…or even that murder is common amongst their social groupings.
Sounds like they might be accurately described as “more peaceful” to me…since a tendency towards rape is only one of many characteristics that determine “peacefulness”.
This will continue to be cute until that orangutan flips out over something and rips that poor dog’s face off. Whoever is exposing their pet to a wild animal like that is irresponsible.
Last I checked there weren’t any orangutan Mahatma Gandhis or Martin Luther King Jr.’s either.
And for that matter murder isn’t especially “common” among human social groupings, at least in the grand scheme of things. It happens, but on average it really doesn’t happen all that often compared to much lesser crimes like theft or misdemeanor assault or drunk driving. Some communities have more murders, but other communities have less.
Besides, how do you quantify “peacefulness” anyway?
Is it just me, or does this make anyone else think of the following:
If it hasn’t got a tail it’s not a monkey,
even if it has a monkey kind of shape.
If it hasn’t got a tail it’s not a monkey,
If it hasn’t got a tail it’s not a monkey,
it’s an ape!
–
And now you will be singing that ALL DAY LONG!
Muwahahahahahaaaaa!
I have no idea, and think I indicated as such by stating clearly there are far more factors than “rape” to determine what that would be.
Your statement clearly indicates you quantified it, since to say orangutans being “more peaceful” is ‘questionable at best” you would have to be making an argument that you had compared the two and made the comparison.
Murder may or may not be more prevalent amongst humans than orangutans. I’m not qualified to offer either as fact. Anecdotal evidence (for whatever it may be worth) would suggest that humans are far less ‘peaceful’. Search for evidence of human-on-human killings. Search for evidence of orangutan-on-orangutan killings. For that matter, search for evidence of orangutan-orangutan (fill in the violent crime blank) and compare it to humans. Which do you think you’ll find more of?
There is plenty of evidence of chimpanzee aggression. I couldn’t find any for orangutans. That’s quite a feat considering:
You’d think that if this population of “umanageable” orangutans was that large…there would be reams of evidence of their killer ways.
It even seems that acts of aggression in the wild are aggravated by human disruption of their “territories”. For all I know…”rape” may be part of the equation, as well.
No. It’s because they can’t make a fist.
Um, no, I was going by German’s comment (the one that started this whole thing) where he very clearly says that orangutans are more peaceful than humans.
I didn’t say anything about “unmanageable” orangutans. All I said was that German’s statement that orangutans are naturally more peaceful than humans is highly questionable. Which it is.
Well considering the fact that there are vastly more humans on the planet than orangutans, I imagine you’d find more examples of human-on-human violence. I’m not sure what that’s supposed to prove, though.
Of course not, because orangutans are less social than chimps so they tend to stay away from each other. But when two male orangutans get close to each other they get more and more aggressive towards one another until either one of them gets scared off or they get in a fight. Even if they don’t actually get into a fight that doesn’t sound especially “peaceful” to me.
My point here is you can’t make a comparison between the relative “peacefulness” of orangutans vs. humans because as similar as they are, they are still two different animals. It’s like saying that rattlesnakes are “more peaceful” than dogs based on the fact that fewer people are bitten by rattlesnakes every year, due to the fact that people tend to avoid rattlesnakes.
evvybuns–veering in another direction, but when I’m out on the screen porch smoking a cigar and the cat is grabbing the doorknob trying to open the door to get outside to chase birds or bunnies or whatever, I sneer and laugh at him and mock him by chanting “THUMBS! I have no thumbs! If only I had thumbs! I could open this $#@%ing door if I had thumbs!”
I don’t open the door for him, just mock him until he gives up. It’s mean of me, but hey, he’s a cat.
mighty samurai,
I don’t know why you persist in making this an argument. Whether it was in response to another poster or not, you did make a quantifiable comparison (by judging the merits of one side or the other by making a decision that one was “highly questionable”).
I’m saying *I think* clearly that all I’m willing to provide (because I’m not going to spend hours on research) is anecdotal evidence…and an opinion based upon this evidence.
I didn’t suggest it was a “proof”, I suggested that investigation wouldn’t defend your position that their “peacefulness” is “highly questionable” given the available evidence. In a few minutes of searching (my google-fu is strong) I wasn’t able to find evidence of ANY orangutan violence…and dozens of instances of chimpanzee violence…and you know as well as I the evidence of human violence would be practically impossible to count.
Your assertion of orangutan-on-orangutan violence (which I also found confirmation of and discounted because it was irrelevant) only proved that they are aggressive when overtly threatened (the definition of entering the territory of a primate…human, monkey, or ape…that SEEKS isolation).
Humans are proven to kill without discernible threat to themselves and cannot fall back on the argument that their inability to acquire luxuries poses some sort of existential threat. Humans will kill for no reason, or for frivolous reasons (boredom, thrills, curiosity).
My definition of “peaceful” is “doesn’t seek offense…doesn’t seek out violence” and can be qualified with “offers violence only in self-defense). Orangutans, from the available evidence, qualify. In all cases of orangutan-on-orangutan violence I was able to find, the violence ended when one submitted. That means that even when violence was employed, *just enough* violence was used to end the confrontation.
I think you’re confusing “peaceful” with “civilized”. So as far as German’s comment is concerned? It may be a bit naive and hint at unicorns and fairy dust…but it’s probably closer to correct than your position given the available info.
OK, since some of you question my opinion that Orangs are more peaceful than humans, I’d like to explain my point of view:
Orangs are vegeterians – they do not hunt and kill. They live solitary, so consequently, they do not form gangs to opress others. They do not start wars, do not torture etc.
Humans vs Orangs? Mothers are killed, the babys are kept as pets till they get older and are no longer cute. Female Orangs are used as prostitutes – yes, I am not too happy about my own race.
I do not say, any ape would make a nice pet – and I would certainly not come too close to any wild animal. But I can respect and admire them for what they are.
It is true I did not read the story about the woman who was attacked by a chimp. But I read plenty of stories about dogs who attacked and killed. Do I stop loving dogs? Certainly not.
The article seems credible enough… But is it just me or do those pics look SO photoshopped?
Point of order:
Orangutans are not vegetarians, they are herbivores. Please don’t try to make them humans. They’re different.
German,
Again, I don’t agree with most of the substance of what you say, but it has a whiff of unicorns and fairy dust to me. Orangutans are omnivorous. They eat MOSTLY fruits, but also will eat insects and what I saw described as “small vertebrates”.
Female orangutans used as prostitutes? I have to be honest…that’s the first I heard of it and had to look it up. Yes…there are some sick bastards in this world.
I would be careful about depicting them as “non-violent”, though. As I understand it, there are basically two different families of orangutan. In one, approximately 90% of breeding is between female and subordinate males (which might be considered “rape”). In the other the ratio is about 50%. Again, the difference between the two can be related to the conditions they live in. So, in fact, what we call “rape” (which as far as I’m concerned, is nothing more than anthromorphism), is more a fact of “that’s the way things are”.
In the cases of unwilling coupling, though, it’s been noted that it can result in severe bites on the female. This doesn’t sound like “Mr. Friendly” to me.
Orangs are vegeterians – they do not hunt and kill.
What Ray said–they’re omnivores, and they do indeed kill and eat birds and other small arboreal critters. Wiki describes them as “highly opportunistic foragers.”
German,
Oops. Sorry. Meant to say “I don’t DISAGREE with most of the substance…”
That looks more like a German Shorthaired Pointer to me although it is unusual to see one without a docked tail. I could be wrong.
Actually that’s a qualifiable comparison. I was questioning the accuracy (and therefore the quality) of German’s claim that orangutans are “more peaceful” than human beings. I did this first by pointing out that orangutans DO commit acts of violence (since I felt the implication of German’s argument was that orangutans never do anything violent), and second by pointing out that “peacefulness” is impossible to quantify and therefore impossible to compare, therefore his argument is invalid.
Again, comparing raw numbers doesn’t prove anything. It doesn’t even suggest anything. Of course there are more recorded instances of chimp and human violence than orangutan violence. There are many times more chimps and humans on the planet than orangutans. You might as well conclude that humans are more dangerous than Great White Sharks. After all, there are far more reports of human violence than Great White Shark attacks.
Humans seek isolation too. We build walls and houses to keep people out of our territory. But if someone steps on your lawn, knocks on your front door, or simply walks within 10 feet of your person, I hardly think you’d consider that a “discernable threat”. Annoying or nosy maybe, but hardly a threat.
As opposed to orangutans, who will fight and possibly kill any other orangutan that steps into their personal space. I gotta tell ya, I’m not exactly getting how that constitutes a non-frivolous threat.
False. Orangutans are omnivores. They’ve been known to eat insects, birds, and bird eggs, among other things.
Besides, the argument that a creature is “more peaceful” simply because it doesn’t eat meat is ridiculous on the face of it. A plant is just as much a living organism as an animal. Why is killing one living organism for food “peaceful” while killing another living organism for food not peaceful?
So humans are “less peaceful” because we don’t live like reclusive hermits? What kind of sense does that make?
This is exactly why I said you can’t compare humans to orangutans. Humans and orangutans are simply far too different from each other to make a valid comparison.
You say orangutans commit fewer acts of violence because they live mostly solitary lives. All right, fine. So what if they DIDN’T live mostly solitary lives? What if they lived like humans do, clustered together in a central location where they have to frequently interact with each other on a daily basis? Would they be so peaceful then? Considering that orangutans can’t even seem to tolerate other orangutans getting anywhere near them, I doubt it.
And besides, what are we supposed to draw from this? That the secret to world peace is for all humans to live like crazy hill people and never talk to anyone? That must be the point you were driving at, otherwise why bring it up?
Besides, even if I accepted your argument that humans are “less peaceful” than orangutans because of our inherent tendency to socialize, then the argument that we are “less peaceful” is purely academic. We can’t be as peaceful as the orangutan because our sociability is part of our very nature.
Yeah, humans sometimes do deplorable things. So what? Shall we condemn lions for killing the cubs sired by other male lions? Shall we condemn housecats for sadistically “playing” with small animals before killing and eating them?
There’s nothing wrong with respecting and admiring animals. I respect and admire lots of animals, some of them highly dangerous or violent animals. But I don’t go around talking about how much “better” these animals are compared to human beings.
“Crazy hill people” reminded me of .
Kuso Jiji–it’s definitely a Blue Tick Hound. The black/brown patterning on the face is a dead giveaway. A shorthair with that much blue in the coat would have a black face with no brown. Yeah, they do look an awful lot alike with that coloration, don’t they?
If you took that dog bird hunting he’d bark at the birds and chase them, then try to tree them when they flushed.
“Crazy Hill people” reminded me of my last family reunion.
Yah, the photos and the idea of different species getting along are very cute but I’m going to have to agree with John M. on this one:
Maybe the orangawhatevs doesn’t want to hurt the dog but as someone pointed out in comments, these animals don’t always know their own strength. Something what may seem like a simple discipline move may actually end up injuring that dog.
You can see them playing here, Rachl:
Now that you’re going to see it, I think I’m going to forward an imminent kidnapping warning to the owners, especially if you freeze it at the 2:52-2:55 spot where the congressional Democrat is hugging the puppy.
mightysamurai,
I can accept your argument as qualifiable. I viewed your position as “quantifiable” because I considered the term “highly questionable” to be a less than direct way of saying “incorrect”. It seemed to me to be the context in which it was delivered.
“Raw numbers”? When one of your numbers is “zero” the size of the two populations being compared becomes irrelevant. Again, I found ZERO evidence of orangutan-on-human violence…but dozens of references (amounting to thousands of cases) of the opposite. I found ZERO evidence of orangutan-on-orangutan violence that I could not attribute to “nature”…and I can’t begin to count, just from memory, examples of senseless human-on-human violence. Orangutans guarding their territory and having sex with any available female in “season” are matters of nature and nurture.
Comparing the instinctive desire of orangutans for isolation to that of humans is a clear case of anthromorphism. You said it yourself, they’re not human, and they can’t be compared that way. It can be argued that by biological imperative, the orangutans could see intrusion on their territory as an existential threat (since not being human, they may not be as astute to be able to “quantify” the difference between “threat to continuing my gene line” to “some interloper ripping off my stash of poontang”). So, to an orangutan…interlopers could very well be considered a direct, existential threat.
“Rape” is a human concept. It can’t be compared with orangutans having sex with any available female “in season”. They’re not human, remember?
I find it revealing that while you considered someone “entering your yard” to not be a direct threat, you didn’t you carry the argument to it’s logical conclusion and use a more comparative argument…which would be “entering your house”. Why not? That’s probably a more accurate comparison of perceived threat to the orangutan…since his “house” and his “territory” are one in the same.
In fact, orangutans declare the limits of their “domicile”. While we build yards and fences, they do this vocally (by “hooting”) many times a day. Orangutans give warning when they perceive an interloper is encroaching, and all evidence I’ve found is that if an interloper keeps his distance (even when in sight of the “alpha”) and doesn’t continue to escalate (by continuing to approach or making threatening or challenging moves)…the interloper can simply leave without harm.
I consider myself a pretty peaceful person. Comparing my behavior to the blotter reports and the news, I’d argue I’m far more “peaceful” than a significant number of my fellow humans. If I find someone in my home in the middle of the night, though…they will only know I’m there because they may see the “flash”. It’s not likely they’ll perceive the “bang”. Does that make me “less than peaceful”?
So, no…in my opinion, the assertion that orangutans are “more peaceful” than humans isn’t automatically “highly unlikely”.
Why?
1. The available evidence suggests orangutans don’t go out of their way to do violence to their own kind.
2. The available evidence suggests that a significant percentage of humans treat each other (and other species) pretty shabbily.
If those are characteristics a person chooses to determine “degree of peacefulness” they seem eminently reasonable to me…and it’s a pretty stark comparison.
The fact that some of German’s arguments can be refuted doesn’t automatically make the overall position indefensible.
Since I don’t live in a world where everything I know must be quantified, aligned, and symmetrical (think Detective “Monk”), I still consider orangutans “pretty damned cool” and “peaceful”.
:)
Respectfully, if I had meant “incorrect” I would have said it. My whole point since the beginning is that it’s simply not possible to say whether orangutans are inherently more or less “peaceful” than humans. There are too many unknowns, too many variables, too many inherent differences (both biologically and behaviorally) between humans and orangutans. And even if we could compare the two species, the answer is not nearly as clear as German suggested.
With respect, I should point out that your inability to find evidence of orangutan aggression does not mean there is “ZERO evidence”. I found a report of orangutan-orangutan aggression “at least seven times over a 4.5-year period” between two rival females. Now of course I’m sure you’re going to argue that this doesn’t count because those orangutans were in captivity, but you’d be wrong. The only real difference between an orangutan’s natural environment and zoo captivity is the fact that, in captivity, orangutans have to live in close proximity to each other, just as human beings do. So in other words, when orangutans are forced to live like humans they start to act like humans. They fight, they quarrel, and they display aggression towards rival members of their species. Most notably, the report also notes that the male orangutan often stepped in to break up the fights, a behavior that human beings are also often known to do, further reinforcing my point that when orangutans are forced to live in conditions similar to human beings they display behaviors similar to human beings.
Here’s some evidence:
“The social unit of orangutan is simple, they are mostly solitude. Males will only join females for mating and mature males appear to be totally intolerant of each other. The meeting of two mature males results in either aggression or avoidance.”
Look at that phrase, “totally intolerant of each other”. This seems to contradict the idea that orangutans are “more peaceful” than humans, does it not? The ability to tolerate others is kind of the definition of “peacefulness”, isn’t it?
Human males (and human females for that matter) generally tolerate each other just fine. In fact we don’t just tolerate each other, we actively seek each other out to engage in primitive social bonding rituals like “poker night” and “football”. In fact we’re so tolerant of each other that we created a ludicrously complex system of inter-species relationships known as “commerce”.
Orangutans don’t do any of that. The females can tolerate each other reasonably well most of the time, but the males can’t stand to be anywhere near each other.
So, this seems to suggest that the orangutan’s reputation for “peacefulness” is mostly due to the fact that male orangutans don’t hang out together and will aggressively drive off any other male that tries to get near them. Maybe it’s just me, but it seems a bit unreasonable to judge a species as “peaceful” based on the fact that they don’t let anyone get near them.
Yet more evidence that comparing the relative “peacefulness” of orangutans vs. humans is fundamentally impossible.
You are oversimplifying the discussion.
First, male orangutans DON’T simply “have sex with any available female”. They have forced sex with any available female. They corner the female, hold her down, and force her to mate against her will. Only if the female is strong enough to fight them off will they stop. I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all to refer to forced sexual intercourse as “rape”. (For the record, the only reason I pointed this out in the first place was to provide a counter-example illustrating that orangutans are not quite as “peaceful” as German originally claimed.)
Second, orangutans don’t simply “guard their territory”. They aggressively challenge any other orangutan that enters the radius of their territory no matter the reason. By human standards this would be equivalent to you running out of the house with a shotgun and threatening to open fire just because someone tried to turn their car around in your driveway. Which is exactly why it’s impossible to say whether orangutans are “more peaceful” than humans.
So is calling orangutans “more peaceful” than humans. You can’t have it both ways. Either anthropomorphism is wrong or it isn’t.
Which, again, is exactly why it’s impossible to say whether orangutans are “more peaceful” than humans.
In order to make such a comparison, you MUST judge both humans and orangutans against the exact same standard. But you CAN’T judge both species against the same standard, because we’re simply too different.
If it’s wrong to hold the orangutan’s aggressive territorial instincts against them because this behavior is prompted by a “biological imperative” then it’s just as wrong to hold the human race’s aggression against them, for exactly the same reason. Most human aggression and violence is rooted in our nature as highly social animals, which is something that’s written into our very genetic code. We are genetically compelled to form close social groups with other humans, and the vast majority of human aggression is based on real or perceived threats to those social groups.
I agree, it IS wrong to hold the orangutan’s extremely territorial nature against them. But by that logic it’s ALSO wrong to hold acts of human aggression against the human race. Holding two separate groups to two separate standards is the very definition of an “invalid comparison”.
Yeah, so is “peaceful”. Again, if it’s wrong to anthropomorphize animals in one area, it’s just as wrong to do it in another area. That, again, was my entire point. We simply cannot say that orangutans are more or less “peaceful” than humans because we’re simply too different. And even if we could the answer is not nearly as simple as it seems.
Because it wouldn’t have been a valid comparison, that’s why not. Human territory is not limited merely to the physical walls of your house. It extends well beyond that.
Similarly, an orangutan’s “house” and his “territory” are emphatically NOT one and the same. His “house” would be the area where he most commonly nests and sleeps. His territory would extend significantly beyond that.
This doesn’t really support your argument. This behavior is almost identical to human territorial instincts. We declare the limits of our territory, just like orangutans, and we ignore other humans who stay outside our individual territory, just like orangutans. The methods are different but the process is basically the same. The only real difference is that humans can tolerate another human entering our territory. Orangutans (the males at least) cannot. They are completely intolerant of each other.
Humans frequently and eagerly welcome other humans, even ones from completely different social/family groups, to enter our territory and interact with us. Orangutans never do this. All other male orangutans are considered overt threats to their territory that must be driven off. Doesn’t sound especially “peaceful” to me.
I mean, by your logic, ANY territorial animal would be considered “peaceful”. Even the hippopotamus, often said to be the deadliest animal in all of Africa, would be considered “peaceful” since they don’t attack anything that stays outside their territory.
For shooting a strange man you discovered in your house in the middle of the night? Not by my definition of “peacefulness”. Of course, my definition of “peaceful” is not universal. Thousands, perhaps even millions of people in this country alone would say that immediately blasting a strange man you find in your house in the middle of the night is the opposite of peaceful (in fact many states have explicitly written this definition into law in the form of “duty to retreat” laws). But I digress…
Your analogy isn’t a valid comparison for orangutan territorial behavior. Obviously a male orangutan would react aggressively to another foreign orangutan that suddenly appeared deep within his territory in the dead of night (though considering the fact that orangutans are most active during the day, that could just be due to the fact that orangutans don’t like being woken up at 12:30 in the morning any more than we do). But a male orangutan would also act aggressively to another orangutan who accidentally entered the outskirts of his territory in the middle of the day. If someone entered your front yard or knocked on your door at 1pm, would your first instinct be to threaten to blast him with a shotgun if he doesn’t get off your property? Of course not. We rightly call humans who do things like that “mentally unbalanced”. So if we’re going to judge orangutans and humans by the same standard (which we must if we want to make a valid comparison) it could just as easily be argued that orangutans are far less peaceful than humans.
But as you yourself said, orangutans are animals and can’t be judged by the same standards as humans. Hence, they cannot be compared to humans. Hence, the conclusion that they are “more peaceful” is not valid.
I didn’t say it was “highly unlikely”. I said it was “highly questionable“. As in, “I question the assertion that orangutans are more peaceful than humans.”
I have no idea whether orangutans are more or less peaceful than humans. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. Maybe they’re more peaceful in some ways and less peaceful in others, and it’s a wash when taken as a whole. We simply don’t know the answer because it’s impossible to make a valid comparison between humans and orangutans.
Well, except for that whole “rape” thing. But I digress…
Orangutans don’t go out of their way to do ANYTHING to their own kind. Except for mating season they simply stay away from each other pretty much 24 hours a day. Humans don’t do this. Humans frequently go out of their way to interact with each other. Sometimes the results are positive, sometimes the results are negative. I don’t think you can legitimately call orangutans “more peaceful” than humans simply due to the fact that orangutans hardly ever interact with each other at all.
Besides, even if you could make that claim, what’s the point? Unless you’re trying to argue that humans need to emulate orangutans and become life-long hermits who never interact with each other except when the males come down from the hills and ra– er, I mean “mate with” females, then calling orangutans “more peaceful” than humans is a purely academic point. Not to mention the fact that orangutans are critically endangered while humans are not, which would seem to suggest that the orangutans’ alleged “more peaceful” nature is a massive disadvantage to them.
thanks Tulley for straightening me out. the only thing i knew about Blue Tick Hounds was a reference to one in Charlie Daniels Long Haired Country Boy song.
Never realized they looked so similar to the GSP.
Woowoo-woowoo-woowoo-wo!
Overall, I’d have to say that the relative peacefullness of orangutans is demonstrated by their reluctance to get into extended pissing contests in blog comments.
Pound for pound,apes have three to five times the upper body strength of a human.If you bump it’s goofy switch you’re in for a world of hurt.
For those of you who think orangs are cute and cuddly you may want to revisit Edgar Allan Poe’s
On another note:
Local legend in Borneo has it that the natives believe the orangutan can actually speak. They, the orangutan, refuse to do so because they fear the white man will put them work.
ROTFLMAO! touché!
I’ll second that ray, and hereby nominate JohnW for the Hidden Gusset Award for this thread!
Where is Rachel? It’s been 5 days since her last post . . . we need new blogging . . . .
Rachel, come back!!!!!
Please???
I think upon reading all these anti-monkey comments Rachl Lukis said “I don’t even know you anymore. It like you’re some one else!”, slapped the collective commentariat in the face and ran out of the room(with the obligatory door slam, of course). Or maybe that was my soap operas, I can’t tell anymore.
[Yeah…that’s actually kinda what happened, Maya. All the orang-o-hate! It hurts me. – Rachel]
Kuso Jiji–if I hadn’t seen a few GSP’s with that coat/colorpattern at field trials and heard their owners talking about them, I probably would have asked one of them how they managed to train a hound to point and hold….
I can’t get over the fact that the monkey’s wearing a life jacket. It’s too much.